Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #851-860





MC-Chassis-Dgst      Thursday, December 10 1998      Volume 01 : Number 851



 1. Bill Heckel            Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
 2. "Sam  Stoney"     Subj: MC-Chassis BMW wheels
 3. Michael Andrusiewicz  Subj: MC-Chassis Found a  QT for sale in Jersey
 4. Bill Heckel            Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Found a  QT for sale in Jersey
 5. "Franklyn Berry"  Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Bike sheet
 6. "Ray or Emily Brooks"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
 7. Lauren        Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
 8. flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)      Subj: MC-Chassis Tire clearance
 9. "dcmserv"           Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Tire clearance
10. "Ed Biafore"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis BMW wheels
11. Johnayleng@aol.com                   Subj: MC-Chassis off subject: reed block coating

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 10:25:16 -0500
From: Bill Heckel 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel width question

Gregor Halenda wrote:
> 
> I'm building a BMW bike for track and possible racing use and have a
> question for the group.

Good for you!   What model of BMW is this?  Sounds like the Mystic but I
thought they ran a bigger rear rim than that.  I used to have one. :)
 
> I'm using a paralever swingarm and stock wheel which is a 2.5"
> tubeless spoked design. 
<>
> modern R1100GS rear wheels which  run a 150 tire on a 4" rim.  
> I've found a person who could lace one of these 4" rims onto my hub

Why don't you have him offset the lacing a bit and use one of the BMW wheel
spacers to do the remainder.

I know it's not the best solution and it will probably make the bike turn right
better than left, but it won't compromise the strength of the swingarm casting.
 
> Externally I've got about 1/8 - 3/16" tire to swingarm clearance now
> (140 tire). Internally I've got about 1/2 - 3/4" space to the actual
> driveshaft.

Yeah, my tire sometimes rubbed under hard riding although I remember running a
size bigger tire...

Why don't you just shave a bit off the rubber on that side ( possibly a stupid
idea although I think the little bead that most tires have on the edge could
safely be removed )
 

> I haven't put the frame together yet so I don't know how much I could
> offset the swingarm in the frame. 

Probably not too much, the transmission output shaft kinda forces the position
of the swingarm to be within a little bit.

Best wishes,
Bill

Damn it's cold out now, I miss last week's weather...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 08:00:32 -0800
From: "Sam  Stoney" 
Subject: MC-Chassis BMW wheels

Gregor writes:

> I'm building a BMW bike for track and possible racing use and have a
> question for the group.
> 
<<>>>>>>

> I'm using a paralever swingarm and stock wheel which is a 2.5"
> offset the swingarm in the frame. What other things should I be
> considering? Is the profile change worth this trouble?
> 

Assuming you're talking about 18" wheels I'd recommend seeing what tire
choices you have for that wheel first.  Avon makes a great track tire in a
130/65x18 size that's plenty cabable of winning races.

As far as wheel offset - it does make a difference. I dont notice it on my
current BMW racer, which has about 1/4", but it made a BIG difference on
the K100 endurance racer I rode a few years ago. turned left great, didn't
want to turn right.  The wheel was offset about 1".

Oh one other thing to consider - you can trim about 1/4 " off the side of
the tire with a knife safely.

Sam 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:01:37 -0400
From: Michael Andrusiewicz 
Subject: MC-Chassis Found a  QT for sale in Jersey

Hi,

I was looking at a QT the other day...the "yamahopper" QT50.

I just looked quickly, but did notice that its a 2 stroke, shaft drive
model.  the single R. shock mounts into the driveshaft tube.  The shaft
"tube" is the S.S.swingarm.  Its kinda a neat design.

Although the shaft zaps some power...is this a workable combination for
a 50cc racer? I would imagine a total machine could be fashioned for
less that 200 lbs total.....

Is it a "viable" candidate?  What is the stock gearbox?

Mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:56:08 -0500
From: Bill Heckel 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Found a  QT for sale in Jersey

Just don't take it out onto a motocross track and try to jump it. :-) I did
once and it wasn't pretty.  It got about 3' in the air but upon landing, it was
all bad.

These things have awful automatic transmissions and really bad handling /
brakes etc...  ( If it's the one I am thinking of, it's been a while )

Now that I think about it, maybe the QT is more of a MC than Moped, it could
have been another yamahaha 50cc moped with sssa that I abused back in '83...

Michael Andrusiewicz wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I was looking at a QT the other day...the "yamahopper" QT50.
> 
> I just looked quickly, but did notice that its a 2 stroke, shaft drive
> model.  the single R. shock mounts into the driveshaft tube.  The shaft
> "tube" is the S.S.swingarm.  Its kinda a neat design.
> 
> Although the shaft zaps some power...is this a workable combination for
> a 50cc racer? I would imagine a total machine could be fashioned for
> less that 200 lbs total.....
> 
> Is it a "viable" candidate?  What is the stock gearbox?
> 
> Mike

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 11:58:30 -0600
From: "Franklyn Berry" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Bike sheet

Julian's weight sheet in now available for download at:

ftp://www.durablebydesign.com/RaceWeight/weight.xls	;excel
ftp://www.durablebydesign.com/RaceWeight/weight.wk1	;lotus 1-2-3
ftp://www.durablebydesign.com/RaceWeight/weight.txt	;tabbed text

- --frankb



Franklyn Berry		Premier Plastics	1225 Pearl St
frankb@lowerytech.com	(800)878-8430 x101	Waukesha, WI 53186

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 17:20:57 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel width question

I would recomend using a 17 inch rim and making space for a 160 width tire
as all the best tires are available in this width and dia. If possible you
could move the entire drivetrain to the right to make room for the tire. I
think you are better off with the wheels inline and the crankshaft offset. 

Ray

- ----------
> From: Gregor Halenda 
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Wheel width question
> Date: Wednesday, December 09, 1998 8:43 AM
> 
> 
> 
> I'm building a BMW bike for track and possible racing use and have a
> question for the group.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 09 Dec 1998 14:33:59 -0800
From: Lauren 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Wheel width question

At 05:43 AM 12/9/98 , Gregor Halenda wrote:
>
>Externally I've got about 1/8 - 3/16" tire to swingarm clearance now
>(140 tire). Internally I've got about 1/2 - 3/4" space to the actual
>driveshaft. 
>

There is possible alternative or adjunctive you might try - there are shims
you can buy that will space the wheel/tire further away from the Paralever.
I too have a BMW with a Paralever and some stock size tires rub slightly.

FWIW,
LCB

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 20:50:35 -0500
From: flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)
Subject: MC-Chassis Tire clearance

Hello all;
             In response to Gregor Halenda's tire clearance problem, I
have shaved the sides of tires for clearance in the past and have good
results with the following method. I use an electric angle grinder of the
type used in metal fabrication.
Get the rear wheel off the ground. Allow the bike to idle in gear.  Grind
the lip off the tire side as it spins. Once you've removed what you want
with the grinding wheel, you can switch to sandpaper for a nice finish.
The end result in barely 
visable.  Warning;this creates a lot of stink and smoke!  I recommend
having someone hold the bike for you and possibly work the throttle. Good
luck.      Tony Manx

___________________________________________________________________
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Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1998 21:42:23 -0500
From: "dcmserv" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Tire clearance

PLEASE be VERY careful if you do this!!! If you slip the chain and sprockets
will eat you alive!
I Know two people that have lost digits to the chain and sprockets. While it
did stop thier nasty nose picking habits, it was a rough way to do so!
My $.02
DG


Hello all;
             In response to Gregor Halenda's tire clearance problem, I
have shaved the sides of tires for clearance in the past and have good
results with the following method. I use an electric angle grinder of the
type used in metal fabrication.
Get the rear wheel off the ground. Allow the bike to idle in gear.  Grind
the lip off the tire side as it spins.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 07:59:50 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis BMW wheels

Sam sez:

> Oh one other thing to consider - you can trim about 1/4 " off the side of
> the tire with a knife safely.

 I like to use a surform plane for this, you know the cheese grater looking
tools they sell for bodywork. It cuts good and leaves a nice finish. I just
put the bike up and spin the tire by hand and plane away. It also works good
for removing the cupping that you get on the treads too.

Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 10:32:34 EST
From: Johnayleng@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis off subject: reed block coating

  Not a chassis question, but with all the people here with connections to
hard to find materials, I thought someone here might know where to get this
fuel-proof material. (vulcanized rubber?)

  I appreciate any info or leads,
John Aylor NM

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #851
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst      Saturday, December 12 1998      Volume 01 : Number 852



 1. Alan Lapp  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Tire clearance
 2. Bill Heckel            Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Tire clearance
 3. David Weinshenker   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Tire clearance
 4. "Franklyn Berry"  Subj: [none]
 5. "Michael Moore"   Subj: MC-Chassis Getting old list files
 6. "Michael Moore"   Subj: MC-Chassis Offroad LL forks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:19:22 -0500
From: Alan Lapp 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Tire clearance

>PLEASE be VERY careful if you do this!!! If you slip the chain and sprockets
>will eat you alive!
>I Know two people that have lost digits to the chain and sprockets. While it
>did stop thier nasty nose picking habits, it was a rough way to do so!
>My $.02
>DG

Along the same lines, I always put a 'shark guard' on my racebikes.  A
friend lost 2 toes by getting his foot caught in the rear sprocket.

Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 14:39:03 -0500
From: Bill Heckel 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Tire clearance

Good advice! Although on a BMW with paralever, it would be tough to get caught
in the non-existant chain or sprocket :)

You can always let the tire do it itself. :)  Unless it is just a small kiss
though, it will overheat end melt the rubber on the tire's edge ( BAD ) and can
overheat the final drive and burn out the seals ( BAD^2 ).  

dcmserv wrote:
> 
> PLEASE be VERY careful if you do this!!! If you slip the chain and sprockets
> will eat you alive!

>> Get the rear wheel off the ground. Allow the bike to idle in gear.  Grind
>> the lip off the tire side as it spins.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 12:25:08 -0800
From: David Weinshenker 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Tire clearance

dcmserv wrote:
> 
> PLEASE be VERY careful if you do this!!! If you slip the chain and sprockets
> will eat you alive!
>
> Hello all;
>              In response to Gregor Halenda's tire clearance problem, I
> have shaved the sides of tires for clearance

I believe the bike in question here is a BMW which has a drive
shaft enclosed in the swingarm.

This should be a little safer, though one still ought to take
care not to be caught by the turning wheel itself...

- -dave w

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 15:03:38 -0600
From: "Franklyn Berry" 
Subject: [none]

Duh. Fingers & Brain not connected. 

=== correction===
Julian's weight sheet in now available for download at:

ftp://ftp.durablebydesign.com/RaceWeight/weight.xls	;excel
ftp://ftp.durablebydesign.com/RaceWeight/weight.wk1	;lotus 1-2-3
ftp://ftp.durablebydesign.com/RaceWeight/weight.txt	;tabbed text
=================
- - --frankb
Franklyn Berry		Premier Plastics	1225 Pearl St
frankb@lowerytech.com	(800)878-8430 x101	Waukesha, WI 53186

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 10 Dec 1998 19:12:03 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Getting old list files

My ISP is now storing the list traffic in the form of monthly 
files that can be requested by any list member posting from the 
address that matches what they are s&bscribed under.

To find out what files are available you'll send a message to :

majordomo@list.sirius.com

saying:  index listnamehere

You'll get a reply back like this:

> Date:          Thu, 10 Dec 1998 18:55:00 -0800 (PST)
> To:            mmoore@sirius.com
> From:          majordomo@list.sirius.com
> Subject:       Majordomo results: mc-chassis
> Reply-to:      majordomo@list.sirius.com

> --
> 
> >>>> index mc-chassis-design
> total 7392
> -rw-rw-r--  1 majordom  majordom  153082 Apr 29  1997 mc-chassis-design.9704.zip
> -rw-rw-r--  1 majordom  majordom   72975 May 31  1997 mc-chassis-design.9705.zip
> -rw-rw-r--  1 majordom  majordom   96982 Jun 30  1997 mc-chassis-design.9706.zip
> -rw-rw-r--  1 majordom  majordom   80059 Jul 30  1997 mc-chassis-design.9707.zip

> -rw-rw----  1 majordom  majordom  188876 Nov 30 01:00 mc-chassis-design.9811.zip
> -rw-rw----  1 majordom  majordom   64730 Dec 10 01:00 mc-chassis-design.9812.zip

To request a file(s)  you send another message to majordomo 

saying: get benelli-motobi benelli-motobi.9812.zip

where you repeat the list name after the get, and then the file name 
follows.

The retreived file is unzipped on the server and sent back to you as 
a mail message.  It does appear you will see a lot more header info 
than would normally be the case for regular list traffic.

So if you lose individual mail or digests you can get everything 
(only a whole month at a time it appears, where before you could get 
specific digests) that you missed, plus all the stuff you didn't 
miss.  And of course, if you've just joined the list, you can get all 
the back traffic without having to go to my website and request the 
small batches of digests in html or zip format.

Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, San Francisco CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 7 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 12 Dec 1998 16:19:14 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Offroad LL forks

The November 1998 issue of the UK publication "Offroad Review" has a 
photo of a 1956 works scrambles Gold Star fitted with LL forks.  The 
forks have tapered round links, no behind the wheel loop, and some 
adjustable bump stops welded onto the stanchions that look like they 
went to the local hardware store and bought some door stops.

The caption mentions that the forks were run in the first leg of the 
Hawkstone Park GP by Geoff Ward, Brian Stonebridge and Brian Martin.  
The standard BSA forks were put on for the second leg so the riders 
could compare the two.  The LL forks were never seen again, ins spite 
of the fact that all three riders put up their better performance of 
the day with the LL forks fitted.

On the opposite page is a picture of a Swiss special in which a 
MotoBi engine has been fitted into a Greeves chassis - they 
misidentified it as an Aermacchi, but I've just sent them an email 
notifying them of their error.

In the same article there is a picture of the prototype Greeves which 
BG had fitted with trailing link forks that look very much like a set 
of the standard Greeves LL forks turned 180 degrees in the triple 
clamps.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #852
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst       Monday, December 14 1998       Volume 01 : Number 853



 1. Mfstj@aol.com                        Subj: MC-Chassis thread cutting
 2. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting
 3. GD             Subj: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting
 4. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: MC-Chassis thread cutting
 5. Dick Brewster  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting
 6. "Michael Moore"   Subj: MC-Chassis Attn: Joe Allan
 7. "cgrandy"          Subj: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting
 8. "Jim Schneider"    Subj: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
 9. "Ed Biafore"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis thread cutting
10. flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)      Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 07:44:03 EST
From: Mfstj@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis thread cutting

Hi,
     I'm tring to cut a thread on some stainless rod for use as pull rods,
however my efforts so far with a split die cuting by hand even when I cut the
thread in stages are less than ideal. The stainless seems to keep galling. I
know stainless can be difficult to work but wonderd if any one has any
suggestions, if all else fails I'll use mild steel rods and paint them as I
can get nice clean threads on this. Oh yes I've been using "easycut" .

                                             Cheers
                                        Matthew Davies

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:36:44
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting

At 07:44 AM 12/13/98 EST, you wrote:
>thread in stages are less than ideal. The stainless seems to keep galling. I
>know stainless can be difficult to work but wonderd if any one has any
>suggestions, if all else fails I'll use mild steel rods and paint them as I
>can get nice clean threads on this. Oh yes I've been using "easycut" 

Use nice clean sharp new machinist's grade die, not something from hardware
store. Use a lard for cutting aid. You can also use something called
'Tap-free' which is mostly carbon tetrachloride. Break chip by reversing a
bit every thread or two.  Results should be better, but stainless is a
proper tough job anyhow.

Best regards,

Hoyt


Belfab CNC: http://www.freeyellow.com/members/belfab/belfab.html 
Best MC Repair-  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/best.html 
Camping/Caving-  http://www.freeyellow.com/members/batwings/caving.html
 'It's the end of the world as we know it; I feel fine' <=Michael Stipe


 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:50:53 -0800
From: GD 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting

     I have had good results using a special cutting fluid that is just
for stainless.   I don't remember what it is called but if you need the
name of it e-mail me and I will get it  for you.

GD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 08:40:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: MC-Chassis thread cutting

- -> I'm tring to cut a thread on some stainless rod for use as pull rods,
- -> however my efforts so far with a split die cuting by hand even when I

 I probably made a ton of 303, 414, and 17-PH4 screws and threaded rods
back when I worked in a machine shop.  The 17-PH4 is the least
obnoxious, but all of them tend to gall when cutting threads.  I played
around with all sorts of cutting oils, thread chasers, and dies without
a whole lot of luck.  Even rolling the threads left an unsatisfactory
finish.  I never did find out how people manage to get such nice
finishes on stainless when making bolts and threaded rod.


- -> suggestions, if all else fails I'll use mild steel rods and paint
- -> them as I can get nice clean threads on this.

 How about 2024 or 6061 aluminum?  2021 can be machined or polished to a
mirror finish and is not as notch sensitive as most other aluminum
alloys, making it a better candidate for threads under load.  Lighter
than stainless too.

==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                                                    

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 11:06:58 -0800
From: Dick Brewster 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting

batwings@i-plus.net wrote:
> 
> At 07:44 AM 12/13/98 EST, you wrote:
> >thread in stages are less than ideal. The stainless seems to keep galling. I
> >know stainless can be difficult to work but wonderd if any one has any
> >suggestions, if all else fails I'll use mild steel rods and paint them as I
> >can get nice clean threads on this. Oh yes I've been using "easycut"
> 
> Use nice clean sharp new machinist's grade die, not something from hardware
> store. Use a lard for cutting aid. You can also use something called
> 'Tap-free' which is mostly carbon tetrachloride. Break chip by reversing a
> bit every thread or two.  Results should be better, but stainless is a
> proper tough job anyhow.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Hoyt
> 

Since most people don't intentionally cook with lard anymore, a
good source for small jobs is the fat left over from cooking
bacon. Or just use the fat from a pork chop. If you cut it right,
you can use the bone for an applicator.

Dick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 13:53:43 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Attn: Joe Allan

Joe,

Your last message bounced as being a non-s&bscriber, and when I tried 
to forward the bounce to
allan@seaside.net
I got a failure notice as that being a bad address.

Drop me a note so we can sort it out.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:43:34 -0500
From: "cgrandy" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting

Try Anchor Lube.

Regards

Calvin Grandy

- ----------
> From: GD 
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting
> Date: Sunday, December 13, 1998 11:50 AM
> 
>      I have had good results using a special cutting fluid that is just
> for stainless.   I don't remember what it is called but if you need the
> name of it e-mail me and I will get it  for you.
> 
> GD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:20:47 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

OK Guys,
I managed to pick up a pair of 6-piston calipers off a TL1000 Suzuki.  I am
going to set the left one up on my T-Hawk, and that will leave me with the
right one spare.  I gave $200 for the pair and will let the right one go for
1/2 of that and a dollar or two for mailing.  The caliper is in primo
condition and is off a '98 model.  could be just what you are wanting for a
bike with a right side single disc!
Thanks,

Swiss
swiss@netmdc.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 04:07:36 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis thread cutting

dave.williams sez:

> I never did find out how people manage to get such nice
> finishes on stainless when making bolts and threaded rod.

 Probably the easiest way is to single point them in a lathe, if you have a
lathe of course. If not get some Tap Magic or something else made just for
tapping stainless and use a real good industrial die.

 If you really need a good thread in stainless, a thread grinder works the
best and I suspect that's how the industry does it.

Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:14:27 -0500
From: flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

wHAT EXACTLy IS A  T -Hawk?

On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:20:47 -0700 "Jim Schneider" 
writes:
>OK Guys,
>I managed to pick up a pair of 6-piston calipers off a TL1000 Suzuki.  
>I am
>going to set the left one up on my T-Hawk, swiss@netmdc.com
>
>
>

___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #853
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst       Tuesday, December 15 1998       Volume 01 : Number 854



 1. David Weinshenker   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting
 2. "Ed Biafore"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis thread cutting
 3. "Ed Biafore"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis water cooling vs air
 4. "Jim Schneider"    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
 5. "Stephen Watson"    Subj: MC-Chassis Threading stainless
 6. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Stainless threads.
 7. Laszlo Szerenyi  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
 8. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
 9. "dcmserv"           Subj: Re: MC-Chassis water cooling vs air
10. "Tom Melesky"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
11. "joel"             Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
12. Mark Mason     Subj: MC-Chassis drive shaft alternatives
13. "dcmserv"           Subj: Re: MC-Chassis drive shaft alternatives
14. Andrew Fairbank    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis drive shaft alternatives
15. "Tim & Theresa Smith"  Subj: MC-Chassis CAD program

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 18:43:42 -0800
From: David Weinshenker 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis thread cutting

Mfstj@aol.com wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>      I'm tring to cut a thread on some stainless rod for use as pull rods,
> I know stainless can be difficult to work but wonderd if any one has any
> suggestions

I've seen a cutting fluid called "Tap Magic" that seemed to
work for stainless... no idea of current availibility though...

- -dave w

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 19:55:28 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis thread cutting

> I've seen a cutting fluid called "Tap Magic" that seemed to
> work for stainless... no idea of current availability though...

> -dave w

 Try Brownells, Inc. at  http://brownells.com/ . I know they stock it and
I've used it with pretty good results tapping holes in stainless.

Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 20:16:04 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis water cooling vs air

Mark sez:

> This might be tough. The lightest Buell weighs 435# and their frame and
> forks weigh much less than HD. Of course if you use a good
> XR750-style frame
> and forks, then it is possible...

 I figure it will be but I just have to push things. The biggest problem
seems to be beefing things up and trying to lose weight at the same time.
But everything is so heavy on an HD I figure that it shouldn't be too bad to
peel off 50 lbs. or so.

 Anybody know where I could get a nice light frame? I want to hang some
upside down forks on it, I was thinking of some GSXR forks. Yea it's
overkill but you know how that goes!!

Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:55:11 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

http://www.thumper.simplenet.com/pix/THawk2.JPG

also THawk1 and THawk3 for photos on the Thumper site.  It is a 700cc Yamaha
powered Hawk.  Kawasaki EX500 fairing, GS500 front wheel, misc. extras.
270lbs for the street.
- -----Original Message-----From: Tony Manx 
Date: Monday, December 14, 1998 7:38 PM
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam


>
>wHAT EXACTLy IS A  T -Hawk?
>
>On Sun, 13 Dec 1998 22:20:47 -0700 "Jim Schneider" 
>writes:
>>OK Guys,
>>I managed to pick up a pair of 6-piston calipers off a TL1000 Suzuki.
>>I am
>>going to set the left one up on my T-Hawk, swiss@netmdc.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:34:17 +1300
From: "Stephen Watson" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Threading stainless

 Matthew 
good luck working with Stainless.  I had the brilliant Idea once that I would build a bike using a lot of Stainless ; one mudguard 
mount later the bike was to be made of aluminium and mild steel .   

It is as far as I am aware stainless is a soft material;  it just work hardens when you try to cut it either a drill or a tap or Hacksaw .   If 
it is 18-8 stainless could it be the nickel that aids in the hardening process??   I don't know .

Though when drilling stainless I use a slow speed -very slow and a old piece of cloth to remove the clearance between the cutting 
face and the material because as soon as the cutting face starts to skate across the surface it will work harden and the situation 
deteriorates .   

So could it be that as the die cuts the material the chips that form gall and break of leaving a crap surface finish .. If this is so would 
only turning the die less than 1/4 turn then back one full turn to clear the die and use a mineral fatty oil as cutting fluid   Lard as 
was mentioned before
Wish you luck Stephen..

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:38:20 +0100
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Stainless threads.

Matthew asked:

>>
     I'm tring to cut a thread on some stainless rod

I always used to screw cut on a lathe and then clean up with a die.  It's
always good practice to machine a groove at the end of the thread and this
is of course easy when you use the lathe,  also a lathe ensures that the
thread is cut squarely.

Tony Foale.

EspaŮa / Spain
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 07:54:34 -0500
From: Laszlo Szerenyi 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

I was looking around that /pix directory and can anyone please
give me some details on:
http://www.thumper.simplenet.com/pix/CHASSIS.JPG and
http://www.thumper.simplenet.com/pix/500GP.JPG
it looks like a big single in a TZ frame I was just hopeing for some
details on it from someone.  Are there anymore larger pics of the
bike anywhere?
I'm still deciding wether to put a big 2-stroke or 4-stroke in my
frame.  I have found an XL 600 motor like Randel and I have
found an '87 CR 500 motor also.

Thanks
Laz

Jim Schneider wrote:

> http://www.thumper.simplenet.com/pix/THawk2.JPG
>
> also THawk1 and THawk3 for photos on the Thumper site.  It is a 700cc Yamaha
> powered Hawk.  Kawasaki EX500 fairing, GS500 front wheel, misc. extras.
> 270lbs for the street.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:36:10
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

At 07:54 AM 12/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I'm still deciding wether to put a big 2-stroke or 4-stroke in my
>frame.  I have found an XL 600 motor like Randel and I have
>found an '87 CR 500 motor also.

You'll have more fun with the thumper and will probably go faster on the CR.

Best regards,

Hoyt

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1998 21:33:17 -0500
From: "dcmserv" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis water cooling vs air

GSXR forks are not overkill on a H-D. The stock forks are a joke and the
GSXR forks probably weigh about the same. Use the brakes too if you want a
religous experience.
DG


>Mark sez:
>
>> This might be tough. The lightest Buell weighs 435# and their frame and
>> forks weigh much less than HD. Of course if you use a good
>> XR750-style frame
>> and forks, then it is possible...
>
> I figure it will be but I just have to push things. The biggest problem
>seems to be beefing things up and trying to lose weight at the same time.
>But everything is so heavy on an HD I figure that it shouldn't be too bad
to
>peel off 50 lbs. or so.
>
> Anybody know where I could get a nice light frame? I want to hang some
>upside down forks on it, I was thinking of some GSXR forks. Yea it's
>overkill but you know how that goes!!
>
>Later,
>Ed
>'91 883/1200 Sporty
>Glendale, AZ
>http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 09:16:55 -0600
From: "Tom Melesky" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

Look at the BareBones website, WWW.BAREBONES.NET. Jay put's Ascot and
Rotax motors into old TZ250 frames. They look real neat and go pretty
fast too.

           Tom Melesky



- -----Original Message-----
From: Laszlo Szerenyi 
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com

Date: Tuesday, December 15, 1998 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam


>I was looking around that /pix directory and can anyone please
>give me some details on:
>http://www.thumper.simplenet.com/pix/CHASSIS.JPG and
>http://www.thumper.simplenet.com/pix/500GP.JPG
>it looks like a big single in a TZ frame I was just hopeing for some
>details on it from someone.  Are there anymore larger pics of the
>bike anywhere?
>I'm still deciding wether to put a big 2-stroke or 4-stroke in my
>frame.  I have found an XL 600 motor like Randel and I have
>found an '87 CR 500 motor also.
>
>Thanks
>Laz
>
>Jim Schneider wrote:
>
>> http://www.thumper.simplenet.com/pix/THawk2.JPG
>>
>> also THawk1 and THawk3 for photos on the Thumper site.  It is a
700cc Yamaha
>> powered Hawk.  Kawasaki EX500 fairing, GS500 front wheel, misc.
extras.
>> 270lbs for the street.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 10:57:05 -0500
From: "joel" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

I'd recommend the CR motor...it's prolly your best bet,
and there's nothing quite like a big 2-stroke thumper.
I've used that motor in a few projects and have always
been pleased with the results.
 ciao,  Joel

> I'm still deciding wether to put a big 2-stroke or 4-stroke in my
> frame.  I have found an XL 600 motor like Randel and I have
> found an '87 CR 500 motor also.
> 
> Thanks
> Laz

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 14:41:11 -0500
From: Mark Mason 
Subject: MC-Chassis drive shaft alternatives

Does anyone know of any alternatives to a conventional drive shaft with 
U or CV joints?  I'm hoping for something that will be easier to work
with (no splined hubs and recutting splines when I change shaft length
etc.) and maybe lighter.  Ideally it'd be something that would last a
moderate amount of time (maybe the equivalent of 10K road miles) at
perhaps 50 hp.  Has anyone come up with something like a really large
speedo cable?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 03:30:24 -0500
From: "dcmserv" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis drive shaft alternatives

I've seen an industrial flex shaft capable of about 25 hp., it was as big as
your leg! I think you're stuck with U or CV.
DG

>Does anyone know of any alternatives to a conventional drive shaft with
>U or CV joints?  I'm hoping for something that will be easier to work
>with (no splined hubs and recutting splines when I change shaft length
>etc.) and maybe lighter.  Ideally it'd be something that would last a
>moderate amount of time (maybe the equivalent of 10K road miles) at
>perhaps 50 hp.  Has anyone come up with something like a really large
>speedo cable?
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 18:19:12 -0500
From: Andrew Fairbank 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis drive shaft alternatives

Mark Mason wrote:

> Does anyone know of any alternatives to a conventional drive shaft with
> U or CV joints?  I'm hoping for something that will be easier to work
> with (no splined hubs and recutting splines when I change shaft length
> etc.) and maybe lighter.  Ideally it'd be something that would last a
> moderate amount of time (maybe the equivalent of 10K road miles) at
> perhaps 50 hp.  Has anyone come up with something like a really large
> speedo cable?

You could use flexible ,fabric reinforced rubber discs. Lotus used that set
up for yearswith success, as has BMW on the R27 and Ural ( can't quite
bring myself to
call the last a successful design) among others.
- -Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 07:41:11 -0500
From: "Tim & Theresa Smith" 
Subject: MC-Chassis CAD program

Hi All!

I have a copy of the student edition of MicroStation version 5 CAD program
that Iíve never used. I bought it my senior year in college (í96) before I
had my own computer because I wanted to get the student price. It is a fully
functional version (so Iím told) but you could only buy it inexpensively if
you were a student. I ended up in graduate school which put off purchasing
my own computer (why spend my $$$ when the school has a whole room full) and
now that Iím finally done and have my own machine, Iíve got another CAD
package with which I am more familiar. MicroStation is uninstalled and the
CD is still in the shrink wrap. I canít give much of a review of the
software as I only used it a little bit a long time ago. The big heavy box
includes:

MicroStation v 5.0 CD for Dos/3.1/NT (donít know if it will work with 95 or
98)

MicroStation v 5.0 CD for Macintosh (go figure)

Development and Support Guide

Database Guide

Userís Guide

Reference Guide

Direction book to install on PC

Direction book to install on Mac

Supposedly the package cost around $2500 to get professionally. I paid $200
and change in í96. If anybody is interested in an inexpensive CAD package
let me knowÖthe box is just collecting dust in my closet

tim s.

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #854
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst      Thursday, December 17 1998      Volume 01 : Number 855



 1. "Ed Biafore"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis water cooling vs air
 2. "dcmserv"           Subj: Re: MC-Chassis water cooling vs air
 3. Alan Lapp  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis CAD program
 4. Alan Lapp  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
 5. "Ray or Emily Brooks"  Subj: MC-Chassis Engine Swaps was Brake spam
 6. "Jim Schneider"    Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Engine swap
 7. "joel"             Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam-Engine Swap
 8. "Tom Melesky"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam-Engine Swap
 9. Laszlo Szerenyi  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam-Engine Swap
10. "Michael Moore"   Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
11. GD             Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Engine swap
12. "Jim Schneider"    Subj: MC-Chassis engine swap

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 04:29:26 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis water cooling vs air

> GSXR forks are not overkill on a H-D. The stock forks are a joke and the
> GSXR forks probably weigh about the same. Use the brakes too if you want a
> religous experience.
> DG

 I'm planning on using everything from the trees forward. I haven't found a
set yet but I figure if I find a set from a racer that pulled them off for
something better..... it's gonna be way cheaper than getting good forks,
brakes and a wheel from the HD aftermarket.

 BTW, has anybody heard of upside down forks blowing out seals from doing
wheelies? Just something I heard once and was wondering about it. Not that I
would ever even think of doing something like that !!

Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 15 Dec 1998 21:43:05 -0500
From: "dcmserv" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis water cooling vs air

> BTW, has anybody heard of upside down forks blowing out seals from doing
>wheelies? Just something I heard once and was wondering about it. Not that
I
>would ever even think of doing something like that !!


Well, after several hundred wheelies on my M900, including many in fourth
gear that were brought down by the rev limiter at over 100 mph, the upside
down forks have yet to leak a drop. As further tesimonial: Gary Rothwell -
stunt rider extrordinaire - rides a GSXR1100 and his forks don't leak
either. The only time I've seen the seals actually blow out on any forks was
when some inept "mechanic" put too much oil in them and they hydraulically
bottomed.
DG

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 14:53:54 -0500
From: Alan Lapp 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis CAD program

>MicroStation v 5.0 CD for Macintosh (go figure)
>
>Direction book to install on Mac
>
>Supposedly the package cost around $2500 to get professionally. I paid $200
>and change in í96. If anybody is interested in an inexpensive CAD package
>let me knowÖthe box is just collecting dust in my closet

Given that I'm a Mac guy, I'd be interested - how much do you want to let
it go for?

Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:00:50 -0500
From: Alan Lapp 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

>I'd recommend the CR motor...it's prolly your best bet,
>and there's nothing quite like a big 2-stroke thumper.
>I've used that motor in a few projects and have always
>been pleased with the results.
> ciao,  Joel
>
>> I'm still deciding wether to put a big 2-stroke or 4-stroke in my
>> frame.  I have found an XL 600 motor like Randel and I have
>> found an '87 CR 500 motor also.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Laz

A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some trouble
with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still shakes
like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system for the
exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the head.  The
cylinder head stay has also broken several times.

The exhaust was also extremely dificult to route for adequate ground clearance.

These development issues aside, it's a cool bike and really fast!

Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 15:19:49 -0500
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Engine Swaps was Brake spam

The vibration issue is one of the reasons I used a RM250 engine in my
project. Short stroke and a lot lighter piston than a 500 equals less
vibration and it still shakes pretty good. How about a belt driven
counterbalancer with the drive pulley attached to the ign flywheel? There
should be room directly under the engine.

Ray

- ----------
> From: Alan Lapp 
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
> Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 3:00 PM
> 
> >I'd recommend the CR motor...it's prolly your best bet,
> >and there's nothing quite like a big 2-stroke thumper.
> >I've used that motor in a few projects and have always
> >been 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 13:55:44 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Engine swap

MOST of the newer big Thumpers have counter-balancers and will vibrate much
less than the big CR.  A couple of years ago, I read an article about a
Husaberg in a 2-stroke Alum. RR frame.  It said that they were also having
frame problems due to the Husaberg lacking a balancer.  Exhaust is much
easier to fit with the 4-stroke.

Swiss
>>I'd recommend the CR motor>>
>>> I'm still deciding wether to put a big 2-stroke or 4-stroke in my
>>> frame.  I have found an XL 600 motor like Randel and I have
>>> found an '87 CR 500 motor also.
>>> Thanks
>>> Laz
>
>A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some trouble
>with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still shakes
>like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system for the
>exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the head.  The
>cylinder head stay has also broken several times.
>The exhaust was also extremely dificult to route for adequate ground
clearance.
>These development issues aside, it's a cool bike and really fast!
>Al

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:45:57 -0500
From: "joel" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam-Engine Swap

I've found that mounting a big thumper like that leads to all
sorts of problems...as it seems your friend has discovered.
Taking inspiration from the Norton, an "isolastic" mounting
may help solve some of the problems he's having with the motor.
It's worked well for me, and if I recall correctly...I
"borrowed" that idea from Rob Tuluie and his tulda.

Joel
www.Formel1-News.com


> A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some trouble
> with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still shakes
> like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system for the
> exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the
> head.  The
> cylinder head stay has also broken several times.
>
> The exhaust was also extremely dificult to route for adequate
> ground clearance.
>
> These development issues aside, it's a cool bike and really fast!
>
> Al
> level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 16:08:19 -0600
From: "Tom Melesky" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam-Engine Swap

I run a 591cc Ascot down in Texas with CMRA. I've learned to put some
'flex' into any attach point between the exhaust and anything else. If
only a piece of rubber under a circle clamp, or a rubber washer.
Anything I've attached solidly to the exhaust has promptly broken!

             Tom Melesky


- -----Original Message-----
From: joel 
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com

Date: Wednesday, December 16, 1998 3:47 PM
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam-Engine Swap


>I've found that mounting a big thumper like that leads to all
>sorts of problems...as it seems your friend has discovered.
>Taking inspiration from the Norton, an "isolastic" mounting
>may help solve some of the problems he's having with the motor.
>It's worked well for me, and if I recall correctly...I
>"borrowed" that idea from Rob Tuluie and his tulda.
>
>Joel
>www.Formel1-News.com
>
>
>> A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some
trouble
>> with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still
shakes
>> like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system
for the
>> exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the
>> head.  The
>> cylinder head stay has also broken several times.
>>
>> The exhaust was also extremely dificult to route for adequate
>> ground clearance.
>>
>> These development issues aside, it's a cool bike and really fast!
>>
>> Al
>> level_5_ltd@earthlink.net
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:23:48 -0500
From: Laszlo Szerenyi 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Brake Spam-Engine Swap

What exactly do you mean by Isolastic and what would you preferably
use for that substance.  Nylon or rubber or ...

Laz

joel wrote:

> I've found that mounting a big thumper like that leads to all
> sorts of problems...as it seems your friend has discovered.
> Taking inspiration from the Norton, an "isolastic" mounting
> may help solve some of the problems he's having with the motor.
> It's worked well for me, and if I recall correctly...I
> "borrowed" that idea from Rob Tuluie and his tulda.
>
> Joel
> www.Formel1-News.com
>
> > A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some trouble
> > with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still shakes
> > like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system for the
> > exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the
> > head.  The
> > cylinder head stay has also broken several times.
> >
> > The exhaust was also extremely dificult to route for adequate
> > ground clearance.
> >
> > These development issues aside, it's a cool bike and really fast!
> >
> > Al
> > level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 17:04:53 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam

> A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some trouble
> with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still shakes
> like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system for the
> exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the head.  The
> cylinder head stay has also broken several times.

Hello Al,

Has he tried rebalancing the crank?  It seems real common in these 
swaps for the swapper to be unaware that different frames have 
different resonant frequencies, and the crank balance factor is 
likely to need some adjustments to work with the different frame.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 16 Dec 1998 19:34:44 -0800
From: GD 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Engine swap

     I helped a friend put a Husaberg engine in a  RGV chassis and had to put a
rubber front mount on it before we could get everything to quit braking.  Since
then it has done very well.
                                                                              GD

Jim Schneider wrote:

> MOST of the newer big Thumpers have counter-balancers and will vibrate much
> less than the big CR.  A couple of years ago, I read an article about a
> Husaberg in a 2-stroke Alum. RR frame.  It said that they were also having
> frame problems due to the Husaberg lacking a balancer.  Exhaust is much
> easier to fit with the 4-stroke.
>
> Swiss
> >>I'd recommend the CR motor>>
> >>> I'm still deciding wether to put a big 2-stroke or 4-stroke in my
> >>> frame.  I have found an XL 600 motor like Randel and I have
> >>> found an '87 CR 500 motor also.
> >>> Thanks
> >>> Laz
> >
> >A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some trouble
> >with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still shakes
> >like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system for the
> >exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the head.  The
> >cylinder head stay has also broken several times.
> >The exhaust was also extremely dificult to route for adequate ground
> clearance.
> >These development issues aside, it's a cool bike and really fast!
> >Al

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:47:13 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider" 
Subject: MC-Chassis engine swap

Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam


As mentioned, some suspension mounting is in order here.  But, on the
exhaust subject, why can't he run the pipe over the top of the engine
instead of down underneath it?  The CR is a short engine (height wise) and
there is a TON of clearance in the center of a Hawk if you take out the tall
carb set.  I know that I found plenty of room for my duals with megaphones
on my T-Hawk (Yamaha Thumper engine), and it is much taller than a CR
engine.
Just a thought.
Swiss
>A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some trouble
>with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still shakes
>like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system for the
>exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the head.  The
>cylinder head stay has also broken several times.
>
>The exhaust was also extremely dificult to route for adequate ground
clearance.
>
>These development issues aside, it's a cool bike and really fast!
>
>Al

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #855
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst       Friday, December 18 1998       Volume 01 : Number 856



 1. GD             Subj: Re: MC-Chassis engine swap
 2. "joel"             Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Engine Swap
 3. flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)      Subj: MC-Chassis rubber mounting
 4. Alan Lapp  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis rubber mounting
 5. Andrew Fairbank    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis rubber mounting

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 07:34:29 -0800
From: GD 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis engine swap

   Running the pipe might be a possibility.   If this project gets off the
ground I would like to hear more. Where is this guy located?
                                                                  GD

Jim Schneider wrote:

> Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Brake Spam
>
> As mentioned, some suspension mounting is in order here.  But, on the
> exhaust subject, why can't he run the pipe over the top of the engine
> instead of down underneath it?  The CR is a short engine (height wise) and
> there is a TON of clearance in the center of a Hawk if you take out the tall
> carb set.  I know that I found plenty of room for my duals with megaphones
> on my T-Hawk (Yamaha Thumper engine), and it is much taller than a CR
> engine.
> Just a thought.
> Swiss
> >A friend put a CR motor in a Hawk frame and he's been having some trouble
> >with things breaking.  The motor is solidly mounted and it still shakes
> >like the dickens.  He has been unable to develop a mounting system for the
> >exhaust which will prevent cracks from forming about 8" from the head.  The
> >cylinder head stay has also broken several times.
> >
> >The exhaust was also extremely dificult to route for adequate ground
> clearance.
> >
> >These development issues aside, it's a cool bike and really fast!
> >
> >Al

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 16:51:05 -0500
From: "joel" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Engine Swap

> What exactly do you mean by Isolastic and what would you preferably
> use for that substance.  Nylon or rubber or ...
> 
> Laz

 I mean a method of engine mounting by which the
engine is rigidly secured in one plane, but has
minimal movement in another...effectively controlled
and dampened by rubber. The vibration is not
perceptibly reduced by much (in my experience),
but it really seems to have diminished whatever
vibrations or resonances contribute to engine mount
and frame cracks.
 This method also allows for the motor to remain
a stressed component of the frame..if you so desire.
 joel

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 17 Dec 1998 20:15:45 -0500
From: flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)
Subject: MC-Chassis rubber mounting

Hello All,
           When I mount an exhaust system or anything else  I want
isolated from vibration, I use what the Harley factory 
uses.  It's a rubber cylinder about 3/4'' diameter by 3/4" long with a
1/4-20 stud at each end.  It's an oil tank mount 
thats been in use since 1965, so it's passes the field test.  The H-D
part # is 62563-65 and they cost about $4.00
US at dealers or an aftermarket shop.
            A similar item used on H-D's is a dash mount, similar to
above but with a 5/16-18 stud on one end, and a 5/16-18 hole on the other
end. I don't have a part #, but it's used on 1978 to 1984 FXS models.
            Harley was also known to use a coil spring over a bolt
between the frame tab and oil tank tab on old Sportsters.
            I use Nylock nuts wherever I can and red Loctite where I
can't. I haven't shed any parts due to vibration in years.


             I have been active on this list for a few weeks now, but
never got to send all of you a letter
of introduction. So here it is;  My name is Tony Manx, I live in
Connecticut(USA). In the past I've worked as a mechanic
and  I've also made a living in the motorcycle business. Currently I work
as a weldor and play as a flattrack racer.
I enjoy this list and I've picked up some good tips.    Sincerely, Tony
M.




___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 09:11:22 -0500
From: Alan Lapp 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis rubber mounting

>Hello All,
>           When I mount an exhaust system or anything else  I want
>isolated from vibration, I use what the Harley factory
>uses.  It's a rubber cylinder about 3/4'' diameter by 3/4" long with a
>1/4-20 stud at each end.  It's an oil tank mount
>thats been in use since 1965, so it's passes the field test.  The H-D
>part # is 62563-65 and they cost about $4.00
>US at dealers or an aftermarket shop.


>             I have been active on this list for a few weeks now, but
>never got to send all of you a letter
>of introduction. So here it is;  My name is Tony Manx, I live in
>Connecticut(USA). In the past I've worked as a mechanic
>and  I've also made a living in the motorcycle business. Currently I work
>as a weldor and play as a flattrack racer.
>I enjoy this list and I've picked up some good tips.    Sincerely, Tony
>M.

Hello Tony, welcome to the list!

These rubber doodads are also available through industrial supply houses
such as Grainger and McMaster/Carr (who are on the web, but I don't have
the URL) in a variety of sizes.  They are much cheaper from these sources.

I used a similar but smaller unit to keep the mounting bracket from
breaking on a pipe I built for an SR500.

Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 22:24:14 -0500
From: Andrew Fairbank 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis rubber mounting

Alan Lapp wrote:

> >These rubber doodads are also available through industrial supply houses
> such as Grainger and McMaster/Carr (who are on the web, but I don't have
> the URL) in a variety of sizes.  They are much cheaper from these sources.
>
> I used a similar but smaller unit to keep the mounting bracket from
> breaking on a pipe I built for an SR500.
>

Be aware that when  these isolators fail the two halves separate, which can
cause your parts
to fall off. A better method is to use a shoulder bolt and a flanged rubber
bushing. This
method is used extensively on Japanese bikes which have a well deserved
reputation
for reliability in such matters.
- -Andrew

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #856
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst       Sunday, December 20 1998       Volume 01 : Number 857



 1. "Michael Moore"   Subj: MC-Chassis (Fwd)  New S#bscriber\V-Max swingarm
 2. flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)      Subj: Re: MC-Chassis rubber mounting
 3. "Michael Moore"   Subj: MC-Chassis Windows thing - some chassis relationship
 4. "Michael Moore"   Subj: MC-Chassis long rods vs short rods

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 18 Dec 1998 20:42:37 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: MC-Chassis (Fwd)  New S#bscriber\V-Max swingarm

Hello Paul,

Your message bounced because the word s&bscribe was picked up as a 
majordomo command.  When posting people need to substitute a 
character  in the words (un) s&bscribe and h#lp to keep majordomo 
from bouncing them to me to deal with.  Also, see if you can turn off 
the html in your message as many regular email editors just show 
plain text filled with html tags.  Thanks, Michael

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

From: Paul Sayegh 

Was just informed about this list and had to s#bscribe. Great idea!
I own a 97 V-Max. Need I say more about why I s#bscribed?
The bike is currently apart due to my discovery of the swing arm pivot
pins being way out of alignment. I have heard this is quite common.
Mine are way out! I machined a 12" long rod with pivot pin
threads on one end and screwed into one side so that it would go all the
way across to the other pivot pin hole. It is 3\8" away from lining
up on the other side. Bike has not been down. Like all V-Max's,
hit a bump in an aggressive turn and you will have to clean your 
shorts.
I can't help but think this alignment problem is aggravating the problem
since the tapered swing arm bearings couldn't possibly be seating 
squarely.
Anyone with experience with this area and having comments, please let me
know. Thanks

................................................................
Paul Sayegh
e-mail; paul@sayegh.org
V-Max Technical List Administrator
VMOA Northwest Director

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 01:41:37 -0500
From: flat-track@juno.com (Tony Manx)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis rubber mounting

 are also available through industrial supply 
>houses
>> such as Grainger and McMaster/Carr   They are much cheaper from these 
>sources.
I am familiar with both of these sources, but I have 2 questions;
1) Do they sell to the general public?
2) What is the minimum order amount?
      BTW, both sources also sell roller bearings.

Usually ,I don't mount something with only one of these doodads. The
chances of 2 failing simultaneously is remote.
Also , they can be had in a heavier duty version which has a coil spring
molded inside the rubber connecting the 2 studs which are enlarged to
5/16"-18.
>
>Be aware that when  these isolators fail the two halves separate, 
>which can
>cause your parts
>to fall off. A better method is to use a shoulder bolt and a flanged 
>rubber
>bushing. This
>method is used extensively on Japanese bikes which have a well 
>deserved
>reputation
>for reliability in such matters.
>-Andrew

   In my opinion, the reason for Japanese reliability in these matters is
that nothing from Nippon shakes as
 severely as  a Harley, not because the mounting method is superior. 
FYI, H-D uses a flanged rubber bushing with a steel sleeve to mount the
chain guard of 4 speed FL series bikes from 1965to 1984.  I used 2 of
these to mount an oversize fuel tank on my Sportster about 7 years ago
and have never had a problem.  The bike has survived racing and about 20
dynamometer runs that loosened other parts.  The center hole will allow
use of a 5/16" diameter bolt.
        Good luck,   Tony Manx
___________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html
or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 19 Dec 1998 16:59:32 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Windows thing - some chassis relationship

I'm still fighting with Equation Editor so I can redo Don Girard's 
book.  At least I'm getting some suggestions from the support people 
at Mathtype, who developed the program.

Currently they think I've got a font file problem, so I'm in need of
a Windows 95 font file: symbol.ttf, which should be in the \fonts
folder.  TF sent me a Win98 version date 5/98, so the Win95 version 
(in case it makes any difference) is probably a 7/95 date, which is 
what the latest version I had showed.

If you can send me a copy of that file please drop me a note - DON'T 
send the file, as I don't want to get 20 copies of it clogging the 
mailbox.  I'll get back to the first person I hear from and ask them 
to send me the file, and the rest of you have my thanks in advance 
for the offer.

BTW, the Win98 file didn't seem to fix things, so I'm not really 
optimistic about the Win95 file working, but at least I'll be able to 
tell support that I tried it and it didn't work.

Thanks,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 11:21:36 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: MC-Chassis long rods vs short rods

For those of you who are interested in the long rod vs short rod
subject I've scanned and zipped a dyno comparison article from a 1990
Circle Track magazine and put on my website at:

www.eurospares.com/longrod.zip

It is about 650K in size, and I'm not going to be putting a link to it
on the site, so you'll need to call it up directly.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #857
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst       Monday, December 21 1998       Volume 01 : Number 858



 1. "Michael Moore"   Subj: MC-Chassis Re: BOUNCE long rods vs short rods
 2. Mfstj@aol.com                        Subj: MC-Chassis X-mas break
 3. Paul Sayegh         Subj: MC-Chassis SA alignment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 20 Dec 1998 16:31:07 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: BOUNCE long rods vs short rods

> From: Neil Collins 
> 
> H#lp (this with the E is what caused the bounce as an admin 
request)
> 
> I've downloaded the articles and read them, but which order do you read them
> where does pages C & F fit in????
 
Hello Neil,

I started with the first page adding an A to longrod and continued 
through the alphabet until I was done.  One page (I think on the dyno 
procedure) was an inserted full-page sidebar that I thought about 
sticking the ending suffix on, but decided to leave it in the order 
it appeared in the magazine.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 10:30:30 EST
From: Mfstj@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis X-mas break

Hi,
     I'm of on my Christmas hollidays so I'll be of list for a week or so.I'd
just like to take this opertunity to say thanks to all who have replied to my
questions your advice and suggestions are much apreciated. So a happy
Christmas, New Year, Solctice or whatever to everyone and I'll hear from you
in the New Year.

Seasons greetings

Matthew Davies

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:09:18 -0800
From: Paul Sayegh 
Subject: MC-Chassis SA alignment

Thought I would post this again in hopes of some input.

I have a Yamaha V-Max which scares the hell out of me when I hit a bump
in the turns (typical).  I have found that the SA pivot pins
(overhung)are badly mis-aligned (in my opinion).  The bike uses tapered
bearings.

I machined a 12" rod with threads on one end and screwed it in the SA
hole on one side.  It was 3/8" off on the other side.  This seems
rediculous.(factory)  Is this common?  How much off will effect the
handling and flex?  Suggestions on repair?  My thoughts were to machine
about a 2" diameter shaft the width of the bike, and internally thread
each end to accept the SA pins.  Cut out the old threads, align the bike
with the new shaft in place, weld the new shaft in, cut out the middle
section when done.  This should yield perfect alignment.  Hope this
makes sense.  Any help, opinions or suggestions appreciated.
- --
................................................................
Paul Sayegh
e-mail   paul@sayegh.org
V-Max Technical List Administrator
VMOA Northwest Director

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #858
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst       Tuesday, December 22 1998       Volume 01 : Number 859



 1. "Michael Moore"   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 2. Paul Sayegh         Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 3. "Michael Moore"   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 4. "Jim Schneider"    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 5. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 6. briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 7. Laszlo Szerenyi  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 8. "Michael Moore"   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 9. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
10. duncan.griffiths@horiba.com          Subj: RE: MC-Chassis SA alignment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:31:11 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

Hello Paul,

> I machined a 12" rod with threads on one end and screwed it in the SA
> hole on one side.  It was 3/8" off on the other side.  This seems
> rediculous.(factory)  Is this common?  How much off will effect the

This does seem way out of line - the pivot bolt holes should be 
concentric.  This should mean that your swingarm goes side to side as 
well as up and down, which seems less than optimum to me.

> handling and flex?  Suggestions on repair?  My thoughts were to machine
> about a 2" diameter shaft the width of the bike, and internally thread
> each end to accept the SA pins.  Cut out the old threads, align the bike
> with the new shaft in place, weld the new shaft in, cut out the middle
> section when done.  This should yield perfect alignment.  Hope this
> makes sense.  Any help, opinions or suggestions appreciated.

I think that will be a bit more bother than needed.  What I do on my 
frames is have a bar the size of the pivot shaft (no threads as the 
frame has plain bushes) held in its location by the fixture plates on 
the frame jig.  I weld one side in (I use a flanged bush so that the 
part I weld on isn't as prone to distort the bore of the bush), 
proceeding very slowly so as not to put too much heat into the parts. 

When that is all in place and cooled I then weld the other side in.  
When done I can remove the shaft, and might run a ream through the 
bushes to clean up any minor distortion that occurred.

I'd think you could make your threaded inserts, drill the frame holes 
on the proper centers (or maybe slightly oversize - I usually do that 
so I can work around any distortion in the frame since the flanges 
are taking all the load and offer lots of weld area) and weld in the 
inserts in the correct location.

You might even be able to install the swing arm into the bushings and 
use it to align everything prior to welding.

I hope that was at least slightly clear - let me know if it wasn't.

Also, keep in mind that is what I, a non-engineer, 
non-machinist/skilled weldor, non-boffin do, as it seems to let me 
work around any shortcomings my technique might include.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:20:41 -0800
From: Paul Sayegh 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

Thanks for the response....

Michael Moore wrote:

> I'd think you could make your threaded inserts, drill the frame holes
> on the proper centers (or maybe slightly oversize - I usually do that
> so I can work around any distortion in the frame since the flanges
> are taking all the load and offer lots of weld area) and weld in the
> inserts in the correct location.
>
> You might even be able to install the swing arm into the bushings and
> use it to align everything prior to welding.

My problem is that I can't get a rod all the way through the swingarm because of the driveshaft
tube, unless I cut a hole in it.  In addition it would be difficult to hold the tapered bearings
in tight to get a true alignment.  Take a look at
http://www.sayegh.org/images/Paul/swingarm_reinforcing.jpg and you will see the problem.  I also
have a picture at http://www.sayegh.org/images/Paul/alignment_rod.jpg  I installed the stock SA
pins and machined an alignment  shaft with the ends bored to axactly the pin size +.001  Can't
even get close to both pins fitting in the end of the alignment shaft.

>
>
> I hope that was at least slightly clear - let me know if it wasn't.

Very clear, thank you

................................................................
Paul Sayegh
e-mail   paul@sayegh.org
V-Max Technical List Administrator
VMOA Northwest Director

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 21:34:06 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

Hello Paul,

You might find a few more tubes will give a more triangulated 
structure to the swing arm brace - it is probably better to go with 
straight tubes instead of a curved brace, as a straight tube is less 
prone to continuing to bend.

Consider making a spacer the width of the preloaded bearings that 
will slide over your existing alignment shaft.  Then you could screw 
that into the threaded bushing, tighten things up, and then weld 
everything in, and maybe have a better control of the inside 
dimension between the frame bushings.

Presuming I've got the correct idea of how the Vmax works on that.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 00:12:47 -0700
From: "Jim Schneider" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

Paul,
Out of curiosity, is this a common problem with the V-Max??  Seems like a
real job for Computrak, but they might not touch it?  It looks like some
sort of major rework on the frame is called for.  I would love to have a
V-Max, but decided long ago that I wouldn't be happy with the non-sporting
aspects of the stock set-up.  read that as I would probably build or buy a
custom frame for it.  The pictures are great and really show what you are up
against.  I have only built a couple of frames in the past, but on each used
a Frame-Jig for proper alignment.  This may be your solution, to set the
frame up in a Jig and repair/rebuild the pivot mount plates.
Just some thoughts.

Swiss

Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment


>Michael Moore wrote:
>
>> I'd think you could make your threaded inserts, drill the frame holes
>> on the proper centers (or maybe slightly oversize - I usually do that
>> so I can work around any distortion in the frame since the flanges
>> are taking all the load and offer lots of weld area) and weld in the
>> inserts in the correct location.
>>
>> You might even be able to install the swing arm into the bushings and
>> use it to align everything prior to welding.
>
>My problem is that I can't get a rod all the way through the swingarm
because of the driveshaft
>tube, unless I cut a hole in it.  In addition it would be difficult to hold
the tapered bearings
>in tight to get a true alignment.  Take a look at
>http://www.sayegh.org/images/Paul/swingarm_reinforcing.jpg and you will see
the problem.  I also
>have a picture at http://www.sayegh.org/images/Paul/alignment_rod.jpg  I
installed the stock SA
>pins and machined an alignment  shaft with the ends bored to axactly the
pin size +.001  Can't
>even get close to both pins fitting in the end of the alignment shaft.
>
>Paul Sayegh
>e-mail   paul@sayegh.org
>V-Max Technical List Administrator
>VMOA Northwest Director

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 06:44:06
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

At 08:09 PM 12/21/98 -0800, you wrote:
>
>I machined a 12" rod with threads on one end and screwed it in the SA
>hole on one side.  It was 3/8" off on the other side.  This seems
>rediculous.(factory)  Is this common?  How much off will effect the
>handling and flex?  Suggestions on repair? 

1) Use it for an alignment mandrel and do a red-hot bending repair of the
area. It sounds as if the threaded rod would make a fine tool for pulling
on the work too. Between you and your frame-man you should be able to
figure out where to heat how much to use.

2) Go to Yam and scream bloody murder.

Enjoyed our conversation the other day. Hated to hear about this problem
because even if you do go back to Yam for help, they will not be happy
about it or willingly helpful.

Best regards,

Hoyt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 05:31:49 -0800
From: briankk@aimnet.com (Brian Knowles)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

>Thought I would post this again in hopes of some input.
>
>I have a Yamaha V-Max which scares the hell out of me when I hit a bump
>in the turns (typical).  I have found that the SA pivot pins
>(overhung)are badly mis-aligned (in my opinion).  The bike uses tapered
>bearings.
>
>I machined a 12" rod with threads on one end and screwed it in the SA
>hole on one side.  It was 3/8" off on the other side.  This seems
>rediculous.(factory)  Is this common?  How much off will effect the
>handling and flex?  Suggestions on repair?  My thoughts were to machine
>about a 2" diameter shaft the width of the bike, and internally thread
>each end to accept the SA pins.  Cut out the old threads, align the bike
>with the new shaft in place, weld the new shaft in, cut out the middle
>section when done.  This should yield perfect alignment.  Hope this
>makes sense.  Any help, opinions or suggestions appreciated.
>--
>................................................................
>Paul Sayegh
>e-mail   paul@sayegh.org
>V-Max Technical List Administrator
>VMOA Northwest Director


 Been hoping myself, that someone had something to say here.  I too have a
big strong street bike (V65 Magna) that can get a bit wierd when flogged up
canyons.  Sometimes, crusing in 6th gear over 80 mph, a gentle roll on
causes reative movement between the engine and frame that I can feel with
my right foot, which is on the peg as the engine moves against my ankle.
And I've checked extensivly for for loose engine mount bolts (known problem
with the Sabre) and frame cracks, can only conclude that something,
somewhere, is giving under load...

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:21:19 -0500
From: Laszlo Szerenyi 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

Could you be talking about shaft effect, when the engine drive shaft
gear tries to climb the drive shaft gear.  The chassis will raise on the
gas and settle down while shifting down.  I also used to have a V65
Magna (I loved that bike and wish I could find another one).  I do
know that shaft effect was pretty pronounced on the bike.  BMW
countered it with the floating shaft housing, though I'm not sure exactly
how it worked.

Laz

Brian Knowles wrote:

>  Been hoping myself, that someone had something to say here.  I too have a
> big strong street bike (V65 Magna) that can get a bit wierd when flogged up
> canyons.  Sometimes, crusing in 6th gear over 80 mph, a gentle roll on
> causes reative movement between the engine and frame that I can feel with
> my right foot, which is on the peg as the engine moves against my ankle.
> And I've checked extensivly for for loose engine mount bolts (known problem
> with the Sabre) and frame cracks, can only conclude that something,
> somewhere, is giving under load...
>
> Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 07:54:04 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

> canyons.  Sometimes, crusing in 6th gear over 80 mph, a gentle roll on
> causes reative movement between the engine and frame that I can feel with
> my right foot, which is on the peg as the engine moves against my ankle.

Hello Brian,

Take a look at the engine mounting bolts and see how tight a fit they 
are in the frame and engine case mounting holes.  You may see some 
noticeable improvements by going to oversize bolts in a 
close-tolerance reamed hole.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 09:56:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

- -> gas and settle down while shifting down.  I also used to have a V65
- -> Magna (I loved that bike and wish I could find another one).  I do
- -> know that shaft effect was pretty pronounced on the bike.

 Yes.  I got to hammer on one for a few hours one night.  I'd heard all
about the horrible "jacking effect", which my Yamaha Turbo was supposed
to have in spades, according to the magazine articles I'd read.  I was
concerned that I'd never noticed anything.  The V65 definitely had
jacking effect; rolling the throttle on and off was akin to playing with
the air-lift seats in a friend's Freightliner.  It was fun, and I
learned to use it to advantage to get a little extra ground clearance
when the bike was dragging stuff in turns.  I can see where chopping the
throttle in the middle of a corner could cause some excitement, but I
merely filed that under "don't do that" and kept on riding.  It
certainly wasn't some horrible handling flaw that was likely to toss me
over the handlebars like some two wheeled James Bond ejector seat, as
eloquently described by more than one reviewer.

 The jacking effect thing was the final straw to break my belief in
magazine road tests, though.  I'm now certain neither of the magazines
that tested the XJ900 ever actually rode one.  And for the ones who
tested the Seca Turbos, I think they had preconceived ideas when they
climbed aboard, and their brief ride around the parking lot didn't
change things.  This was reinforced a few years later when I spent some
time on my brother's Evo Sportster; it certainly wasn't my XJ900, but it
started every time, hauled my fat butt around with no obvious quirks,
and I wasn't in need of physical therapy after getting off it.  Of
course, this ignores the outrageous price of the machine, and the fact
that the stock peanut tank made the range so short you had to plan your
trips from gas station to gas station...

==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                              

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 08:27:08 -0800
From: duncan.griffiths@horiba.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis SA alignment

If the swingarm is this far out, it would make sense to get the rest of the
frame checked for alignment before working on one part.  3/8" is not (or
shouldn't be) common.  Production engineering has tolerances, but they're a
lot smaller than that.  It'll certainly affect handling, as swingarm forces
will push on one side of the frame differently than the other.

If the rest of the frame is straight, your fix sounds good.
Duncan
================
From: Paul Sayegh 

I have a Yamaha V-Max which scares the hell out of me when I hit a bump
in the turns (typical).  I have found that the SA pivot pins
(overhung)are badly mis-aligned (in my opinion).  The bike uses tapered
bearings.

I machined a 12" rod with threads on one end and screwed it in the SA
hole on one side.  It was 3/8" off on the other side.  This seems
rediculous.(factory)  Is this common?  How much off will effect the
handling and flex?  Suggestions on repair?  My thoughts were to machine
about a 2" diameter shaft the width of the bike, and internally thread
each end to accept the SA pins.  Cut out the old threads, align the bike
with the new shaft in place, weld the new shaft in, cut out the middle
section when done.  This should yield perfect alignment.  Hope this
makes sense.  Any help, opinions or suggestions appreciated.
- - --
................................................................
Paul Sayegh
e-mail   paul@sayegh.org
V-Max Technical List Administrator
VMOA Northwest Director

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #859
******************************


MC-Chassis-Dgst       Tuesday, December 22 1998       Volume 01 : Number 860



 1. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 2. "Ed Biafore"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 3. "Terry Hayden"   Subj: MC-Chassis Re: swingarm brace
 4. Bob Schnick    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #858
 5. "Michael Moore"   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: swingarm brace
 6. "Michael Moore"   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: swingarm brace
 7. Andrew Fairbank    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment
 8. Ian Drysdale      Subj: MC-Chassis V Max SA Alignment
 9. Join YHWH Or Be Stoned  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: swingarm brace
10. bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert) Subj: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:52:11
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

At 05:31 AM 12/22/98 -0800, you wrote:
>big strong street bike (V65 Magna) that can get a bit wierd when flogged up
>canyons.  Sometimes, crusing in 6th gear over 80 mph, a gentle roll on
>causes reative movement between the engine and frame that I can feel with

Be careful of these... one of my cases was a crack-up, front end turned out
to be loose. They use one pinch bolt, I think, and an axle nut. On the one
in question, the anti-dive worked on the nutted end, not the pinched end,
of the axle, worked it loose. Result was a wobble stopped by telephone
pole. You should stay after the torque values on the front end whatever
else you do, including fork clamp bolts and all axle stuff, and be sure the
junctures of the various bits comprising this are all assembled clean and dry.

Best regards,

Hoyt

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 13:53:39 -0700
From: "Ed Biafore" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis SA alignment

Dave Willams sez:

>  The jacking effect thing was the final straw to break my belief in
> magazine road tests, though.  I'm now certain neither of the magazines
> that tested the XJ900 ever actually rode one.  And for the ones who
> tested the Seca Turbos, I think they had preconceived ideas when they
> climbed aboard, and their brief ride around the parking lot didn't
> change things.  This was reinforced a few years later when I spent some
> time on my brother's Evo Sportster; it certainly wasn't my XJ900, but it
> started every time, hauled my fat butt around with no obvious quirks,
> and I wasn't in need of physical therapy after getting off it.  Of
> course, this ignores the outrageous price of the machine, and the fact
> that the stock peanut tank made the range so short you had to plan your
> trips from gas station to gas station...

Hey Dave,
 I have an Evo Sporty and though it has some of the flaws you mention, price
really isn't one of them. A new 883 goes for @ $5000 list, so it's pretty
cheap as far as an almost 900cc bike gets. I really think these writer guys
should get they're heads outta the mostest mode, i.e. fastest, smoothest,
Hondaest and realize that most people don't buy those bikes. Just my
opinion.

Later,
Ed
'91 883/1200 Sporty
Glendale, AZ
http://home.att.net/~biafore/index.htm

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 12:57:34 -0800
From: "Terry Hayden" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: swingarm brace

Michael, you raise a good point here. I have a spare Vmax swingarm and
requisite tubing but have been futzing around for about a year trying to
come up with the perfect design. Most of what I have found
( http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/2476/swingarm.htm )
relies on the 180 bend, which I believe "may" adequately address the
individual sides but does little to tie the whole arm together to reduce
torsional flexing. Can you elaborate a little more about your straight tube
design?

cheers, Terry


Michael Moore wrote re swingarm brace>
>You might find a few more tubes will give a more triangulated
>structure to the swing arm brace - it is probably better to go with
>straight tubes instead of a curved brace, as a straight tube is less
>prone to continuing to bend.
>
>>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 16:38:42 -0400
From: Bob Schnick 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #858

At 8:08 PM -0800 12/21/1998, owner-mc-chassis-design-digest@list.sirius.com
>Date: Mon, 21 Dec 1998 20:09:18 -0800
>From: Paul Sayegh 
>Subject: MC-Chassis SA alignment
>
>Thought I would post this again in hopes of some input.
>
>I have a Yamaha V-Max which scares the hell out of me when I hit a bump
>in the turns (typical).  I have found that the SA pivot pins
>(overhung)are badly mis-aligned (in my opinion).  The bike uses tapered
>bearings.


Paul, you may be able to get some ideas from John Furbur of Rocky Mountain
SportMax. He and his business are into fixing and modifying the V-Max.
His Web site is: .

His email signature is:
*** NEW E-mail Address!!!- RMSportMax@sprintmail.com ***
* John Furbur & Rocky Mtn. SportMax * Vmax Owners Assoc.#75
*'Affordable Sportbike & VMAX Alternatives'* Denver, CO.
* http://www.RMSportMax.com * VOICEMAIL-303-239-VMAX(8629)

I've bought parts from him and his brother before and they are honest
businessmen.

later,
Bob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:09:54 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: swingarm brace

> come up with the perfect design. Most of what I have found
> ( http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/2476/swingarm.htm )
> relies on the 180 bend, which I believe "may" adequately address the
> individual sides but does little to tie the whole arm together to reduce
> torsional flexing. Can you elaborate a little more about your straight tube
> design?

Hello Terry,

You can start by reading Tony's article on frame bracing at:

http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos/Articles/Frame.mod/KawaMods.htm

None of the designs on the referenced web site seem to do the job to 
me.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 14:41:08 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: swingarm brace

www.eurospares.com/graphics/vmaxsarm.jpg

is what I had in mind.

It may be a bit overelaborate, but then a Vmax can put out a fair 
amount of power.

You could also do some nice sheet metal fabrication, basically 
filling all the bracing planes with sheet, that could look very nice 
and also be quite strong.

Cheers,
Michael

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 18:11:00 -0500
From: Andrew Fairbank 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

> I machined a 12" rod with threads on one end and screwed it in the SA
> hole on one side.  It was 3/8" off on the other side.  This seems
> rediculous.(factory)

I don't see how your test distinguishes between pivots which are not
squareto each other and pivots which are out of line with each other.  I
doubt that
one pivot is 3/8" closer to the front wheel than the other. My guess is that
the
pivots are not both 90 degrees from the swingarm center line.
Your proposed method would not ensure the pivots remain parallel after
that tube is removed, since if there were stresses left in the welded joints

the pivots could relax out of parallel.  Possibly one of the pivots is at 90

degrees to the swing arm in which case you could use that as a starting
point for aligning the swingarm to the steering head then weld up and rebore

the opposing pivot  using the first pivot and your cross tube as a guide.
- -Andrew

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 23 Dec 1998 10:20:58 +1100
From: Ian Drysdale 
Subject: MC-Chassis V Max SA Alignment

> > I machined a 12" rod with threads on one end and screwed it in the
> SA
> > hole on one side.  It was 3/8" off on the other side.  This seems
> > rediculous.(factory)  Is this common?  How much off will effect the
>



May I put my 2 bob's ( quarter's ) worth in ?

When you said the frame was out 10 mm I thought you have
either a massive bend or a major gripe with Yamaha.

Looking at your photos ( which are excellent ) I can see how
you arrive at the 10 mm out business and it isn't accurate.
You really need to duplicate the mounting features of the
swingarm with a nice parallel & concentric piece of steel
and then hold it all the with the std Yamaha mounting spigots
etc.

You can then take a line off this and check vertical and horz
perpendicularly with a good quality square.

This pivot design is used by most of the shaft drive bikes  to
good effect although it may not be ideal due the contact angle
of the tapered bearings tending to spring the frame apart under
load - it is certainly fine on any bike I have had (CX, GS11G).

The V Max obviously puts more load on it than a mild
mannered CX - but that said the contact angle of a tapered
bearing is pretty low - so the effect isn't going to be too great.

Back to your misalignment - whist 10mm projected over
that distance isn't ideal - I would not be too worried about it.
The distance gap is ~300 mm and the bearing is a 42 mm?
Trig. will give that as about 1 mm out at the contact point of the
rollers ( 0.5 per side ) - again - not ideal but a tapered
bearing will handle a lot of misalignment.  In this application
it is doing no revs ( to speak of ) .

If your 'dummy' shows that the alignment is OK - I would
look at some way to tie the outside plates together so that
they can't spring apart as much under load.  A bolt right thru
the centre is ideal but not able to be used in this application
I realize.

Have you considered the possibility that the frame mounts
have been sprung by overtensioning ?  That is a real
possibility.

I worked at a place where we took delivery of a new
hobbing machine and the hob shaft had a decent flywheel on
it yet the tapered bearings were preloaded so hard that 2
men couldn't turn the flywheel.  A technician came out and
checked it out but it was fine - shows how much preload a
tapered bearing will take.

I assume the V Max uses a fine threaded spigot to preload
the tapered bearings ?  This is worthy of some investigation.
Looks like your machining skills are up to making a slightly
oversize version of this item - it may take enough movement
out to give the feel you are looking for.

You will never achieve the feel of the pretty well ideal
setup that a massive 'thru' swingarm bolt gives a chain drive
bike - but some sort of external clamping should improve
things appreciably.




Cheers   IAN




- --
Ian Drysdale

DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 18:24:46 -0500
From: Join YHWH Or Be Stoned 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: swingarm brace

> www.eurospares.com/graphics/vmaxsarm.jpg
> 
> is what I had in mind.
> 
> It may be a bit overelaborate, but then a Vmax can put out a fair 
> amount of power.

I have a swingarm braced almost identically to your drawing on my
GS450 sidecar rig, it made an incredible difference.  Before I braced
it the back end would hop around in slides making it hard to hold a
line, now it slides smoothly and controllably.  I chose this design
because bent tubing offends what few engineering sensibilities I have,
and I don't have a tubing bender.

I used MIG welded box section mild steel tubing, probably .049.  I
think I used 1/2" X 3/4" on the sides where I needed tire and chain
clearance, at the front of the swingarm it's 3/4 X 3/4. The chain run
was a bit tricky.  The tubes that go to the rear of the swingarm are
welded to the axle dropout, it was even a fairly aesthetic solution on
the GS450.  I assume the VMax has two rear shocks, if so you might get
better support if the shaft-side brace terminates at the lower shock
mount (bolted to the shock mount of course).

A lot of bikes put the battery above the front of the swingarm where
the bracing wants to go.  I won't spoil the mystery and tell where I
relocated it to on my bike (it's not on the chair).  It would have
been much more convenient to brace the swingarm under the bike, but I
wanted maximum triangulation and I needed the ground clearance for
off-road use.

One problem to watch out for is distortion when you weld near the
bearing races.  I was really careful and welded a bit at a time,
letting it cool in between welds, but still wound up with too much
distortion.  I guess a single thou is too much distortion as far as
the bearings are concerned, probably the right approach is to just
assume that you'll have to clean up any critical surfaces near the
welds.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 22 Dec 1998 19:14:22 -0500 (EST)
From: bc180@freenet.carleton.ca (Peter Alan Engelbert)
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis SA alignment

The most simple and precise fix would be to find a shop with a Compu-Trak
machine. They can verify and fix the misalignment. 



>
>Thought I would post this again in hopes of some input.
>
>I have a Yamaha V-Max which scares the hell out of me when I hit a bump
>in the turns (typical).  I have found that the SA pivot pins
>(overhung)are badly mis-aligned (in my opinion).  The bike uses tapered
>bearings.
>
>I machined a 12" rod with threads on one end and screwed it in the SA
>hole on one side.  It was 3/8" off on the other side.  This seems
>rediculous.(factory)  Is this common?  How much off will effect the
>handling and flex?  Suggestions on repair?  My thoughts were to machine
>about a 2" diameter shaft the width of the bike, and internally thread
>each end to accept the SA pins.  Cut out the old threads, align the bike
>with the new shaft in place, weld the new shaft in, cut out the middle
>section when done.  This should yield perfect alignment.  Hope this
>makes sense.  Any help, opinions or suggestions appreciated.
>--
>................................................................
>Paul Sayegh
>e-mail   paul@sayegh.org
>V-Max Technical List Administrator
>VMOA Northwest Director
>
>
>
>

- --
Peter Engelbert: bc180@Freenet.Carleton.CA  or engelbp@mczcr.gov.on.ca
Vintage Road Racing: it's never too late to have a happy childhood. 

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #860
******************************



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