Motorcycle Chassis Design Digest #711-720





MC-Chassis-Dgst        Thursday, July 30 1998        Volume 01 : Number 711



 1. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Numbskull
 2. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Braking under lean
 3. uranus       Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Not enough old cars already
 4. uranus       Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Another shirt design
 5. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: A long brief comment,as requested.
 6. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Frames
 7. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Not enough old cars already
 8. "Frank Camillieri"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Frames
 9. HansDieter Schmidt  Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Laverda Another shirt design
10. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Frames
11. Ian Drysdale      Subj: MC-Chassis Repco Brabham.
12. "Calvin Grandy"    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: A long brief comment,as requested.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 29 Jul 1998 16:48:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Numbskull

- -> held on by friction between the wheel and the hub - he was saying
- -> that the wheels were located in the rotational plane by a tight fit
- -> between the holes in the wheels and the wheel bolts - which IS wrong.

 Believe it or not, some wheels *are* held on that way - most older
aluminum wheels used shanked nuts, and a few steel wheels did too.  I
happen to have some of each.

 Most wheels are located by the bolt pattern and the taper on the nuts
or bolts; some of the more modern cars locate off the hub and the
fasteners mostly handle driving and cornering loads.


- -> He'll sue me if he reads this.

 Is he still alive?  I haven't seen anything from him in ages.

==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                                                                                               

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 09:06:13 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Braking under lean

Patrick asked:

<<
. Why
do bikes stand up when the front brake is applied while cornering and why
do some bikes do it so much more than others?
>>

There are many factors involved, as usual, but one to consider is:
When leaning, the tyre contact patch moves to the inside, so when we apply
the brake a torque is generated trying to steer into the corner, this causes
a precessional motion in a direction tending to make the bike standup.
Tyre width and other considerations will affect the degree of this tendency.
Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:36:05
From: uranus 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Not enough old cars already

At 16:14 29/07/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Yer right, of course, I think the driver was really Peter Arandahl Problem is I was in the Army in Sept 66 and couldn't have made the '66 race
>unless it was previous to that. I know I saw it though. When did the
>formula go to 3 liters? 

Seeing as I have the book to hand . . the 3-litre formula started in 1966,
in the first races of the year a lot of teams were using smaller engines as
the 3-litre ones weren't ready.  In fact even by the 8th race of the year
(2nd October 1966) Pete Arundell was still driving a Lotus with a 2-litre
Coventry Climax V-8, as the BRM H-16 engines were so untrustworthy.  Jim
Clark took a chance on an H-16 lasting the distance and it paid off.
Arundell span off during the race, taking Surtees (Cooper-Maserati) with
him, but they both rejoined - it was easier when the cars had an inch or
two of ground clearance and starter motors (also no gravel traps), but he
did do some practice laps with the H-16.  So I don't know how you got to
see the race - perhaps you got a weekend pass, or did you go AWOL :-)?  All
in a good cause.

>Ya know, I recall a Honda 12 cyl warming up then
>too, with a lot more grace and a lot less fuss than the BRM.

Honda were early adopters of 4 valves per cylinder - they claimed 400bhp,
running on roller bearings with a power take-off from the centre of a
48-valve V-12.  BRM claimed 420bhp for their 32-valve engine but Honda had
reliability and BRM were probably lying.  Repco had a modest 315bhp at only
7,500 with 16 valves, but they had reliability and much lower fuel
requirements, almost half of what Honda needed - saves a lot of weight
overall.  The most advanced looking engine that year was Dan Gurney's
Weslake 48-valve V-12, but I don't think he ever had proper funding and
they were all aced by Keith Duckworth's V-8 the following year.

>I have one of them in a Corvair ... no, the original, not a destroked SOHC.

Is this the same basic 3.5 litre engine that Rover of England bought from
Buick?  Still in production as a fuel injected 4 or 4.6 litre.  What's
wrong with Corvair engines, though? 

I really must go and do some work on the bike soon, eh?

David T.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:41:39
From: uranus 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Another shirt design

This would look best on a shirt back, I think, with just the URL on the
front shirt pocket.  However, you'll either have to have a word with your
ISP and get eurospares.com mapped to your homepage, or put in the www. ;-)

David T.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:55:50
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: A long brief comment,as requested.

At 06:09 PM 7/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
>
>	In reading Tony's reply to Mr Whittaker, I was reminded of a
>question I kept asking myself this weekend as I came down the Sierra. Why
>do bikes stand up when the front brake is applied while cornering and why
>do some bikes do it so much more than others?

It's purely a function of tire width: when you brake while leaning, the
forces are transmitted through a contact patch that is off center. This
displaces the fork a bit and the gyroscopic reaction to that picks the bike
up. It's the same as turning the fork deeper into a corner to cancel the
turn and straighten up.

Hoyt



 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:58:44
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Frames

At 11:21 PM 7/29/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I would think the benefit of a 4130 heat treated frame is outweighed 
>by the cost. It would be no stiffer than a mild steel frame and only 
>slightly more crash resistant. 

Ahem, that would be about 4 times more crash resistant if UTS enters into
that.


Hoyt





 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:07:22
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Not enough old cars already

At 10:36 AM 7/30/98, you wrote:
>the 3-litre ones weren't ready.  In fact even by the 8th race of the year
>(2nd October 1966)

If the 8th race was early Oct, I must have seen the Glenn before I was
inducted. I went in in late Sept. I can hardly be mistaken about being
there: I met my (first) wife in the infield that year. 

 Pete Arundell was still driving a Lotus with a 2-litre
>Coventry Climax V-8, as the BRM H-16 engines were so untrustworthy. 

Who drove the other BRM? This is killing me.

> but he
>did do some practice laps with the H-16. 

This must be it. I'm not surprised practice wasn't reported so well as the
race. I'm sure it was a BRM he spun.
>
>Is this the same basic 3.5 litre engine that Rover of England bought from
>Buick?  Still in production as a fuel injected 4 or 4.6 litre.  What's
>wrong with Corvair engines, though? 

That's it. Nothing wrong with Covair mills as such, though dreadfully
sensitive to ignition timing. But the V8 had 185 Hp bone stock and it had
about 50% more torque throughout the RPM. Anyway doesn't CorV-8 sound better?

Best wishes,

Hoyt



 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:32:26 -0400
From: "Frank Camillieri" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Frames

Ahem, that would be about 4 times more crash resistant if UTS enters into
that.

I wouldn't think it could be 4 times more crash resistant. Most builders using 
 4130 use thinner tubing and what about the joints? They would still be weak 
points.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:14:05 -0400
From: HansDieter Schmidt 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Laverda Another shirt design

Michael wrote:
>I received this from Paul Kellner this morning:

>"Re your T-shirt request, here's a concept for the front. The idea was
>to have a combination of past, present and engineering elements, as
>reps for your mailinglists. (couldn't figure out how to get a dirt
>rider in the pic tho!) The rear could be the lettering and flags only,
>without the graphics. "
- ---------

Pretty cool stuff - but i suggest to put the main concept on the back and 
just the logo (flags/listnames...) 
on the left  part on the front

What do you think ?

Ciao
Hans-Dieter Schmidt
EXPEDITORS INTERNATIONAL - Branch Frankfurt
Tel.:+ 49-6107-799107
Fax.:+49-6107-62352
E-Mail:Hanss@ei-fra.expd.com 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 07:54:11
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Frames

At 07:32 AM 7/30/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Ahem, that would be about 4 times more crash resistant if UTS enters into
>that.
>
>I wouldn't think it could be 4 times more crash resistant. Most builders
using 
> 4130 use thinner tubing and what about the joints? They would still be weak 
>points.

Well, to make an comparisons at all we have to assume the same dimensions,
yes?

The joints in brazed asm tend to be filleted and that adds quite a bit of
strength to them. Anyway, usually crash damage is by bending stuff around,
not by fracking the joints.

Best regards,

Hoyt



 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 00:30:25 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale 
Subject: MC-Chassis Repco Brabham.

> As Phil Irving was initially the main engineer

This is a contentious issue - the chief engineer was Frank Hallam
who undoubtedly did the initial spec - including using the Olds
block.  Equally - there seems no doubt that PI did all the detailed
design.  Hallam and PI couldn't stand the sight of one and other
and Phil was written out of the official Repco history of the F1
engine.  ( Which was absurd )

The Hunwick Hallam vee twin also made in Oz was designed by
Paul Hallam - Frank's son.  His opinion of Phil is ( not surprisingly)
similar to his dad's - but paradoxically I think Phil would probably
approve of the HH design more than my V8.

Whilst Tony knew him better - there is no doubt Phil was capable
of being a cantankerous old bastard at times.





> Later they took on a new whizz kid  engineer from England (whose name
> escapes me) who was at odds with Irving on many design features, it was not
> so successful after that.



Judd was his name - later had more success in his F1 engine designs.


Cheers   IAN


- --
Ian Drysdale

DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:42:28 -0400
From: "Calvin Grandy" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: A long brief comment,as requested.

Tony

Thank you for the thorough treatment!

I too am sensitive to the author's use of less than revealing
arguments in the article.  This did not diminish the provocation
however.

As food for thought, I have considered your question about exiting a
turn, when on the limits of adhesion, by the use and aid of the
"Gravity theory of cycle dynamics"(my term).  As a dynamic system,
with no absolutes,(good riders can slide across the "adhesion limit"
with various degrees of impunity)  the very action of decreasing the
turn radius without compensation by increased bank, will result in
conversion of lateral acceleration forces into vertical forces.
If the tire loading/adhesion curve is not already "over the hill",
this new found grip will allow the smaller turn radius required to
"steer back under" the CG 

- --As observation:
 In the company of my two sons age 12 and 6 yrs, We attended a local
Moto-X Saturday last,  There was among the contestants, a single
individual of outstanding skill and daring.  Easily besting all
challenges in the expert division in 125,250 and open classes. 
Rather an exhibition.
On this track, the first turn after the start,  is an uphill right
hand with the apex at the crest.  The track layout includes a bit of
a kicker about -10 yards before the apex.
This feature does a great job at discouraging the "inside line"
This particular rider makes this feature bend to his advantage. 
Taken at speed, with suitable mid air adjustments that include laying
the machine right over with the rear wheel high and everything tilted
to a confusing angle(processional forces here) , the landing is well
down the farside, after the apex and all pointed in the required
direction.  Much of these antics were "stylin'", for when riding in
close company, the arial action was much less, but this rider knows
how to move the bike, without requiring reaction with the ground.  A
truly graphic example of forces at work ! ------


Regards

Calvin Grandy

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #711
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst        Thursday, July 30 1998        Volume 01 : Number 712



 1. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Yet more on turning
 2. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Repco Braham
 3. Marty Maclean     Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Repco Brabham.
 4. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com              Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Re: Repco Braham
 5. "Peter Snell"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Braking/steering reactions mid-corner.
 6. "Calvin Grandy"    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Yet more on turning
 7. "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)"  Subj: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle
 8. Paul Kellner  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Another shirt design
 9. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Yet more on turning
10. Mitch Casto   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Yet more on turning
11. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Guggenheim Museum Motorcycle Exhibit
12. jmark.vanscoter@amd.com              Subj: MC-Chassis New M/C Technology from September Cycle World
13. uranus       Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Watkins Glen

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:16:08 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Yet more on turning

Calvin said:

<<
the very action of decreasing the
turn radius without compensation by increased bank, will result in
conversion of lateral acceleration forces
>>

If a rider is on the limit, then by definition there is no more lateral
acceleration to be found, thus the action of steering further into the bend
will not result in "decreasing the turn radius", however the precessional
forces will still be in play.
For those that are not cornering on the limit, then of course both the
steering back under AND precessional effects will come into play.

Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:34:41 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Repco Braham

Ian said:

<<
 the chief engineer was Frank Hallam
who undoubtedly did the initial spec - including using the Olds
block.  Equally - there seems no doubt that PI did all the detailed
design.
>>

Yes you're correct of course, I'd forgotten that.

<<
Hallam and PI couldn't stand the sight of one and other
and Phil was written out of the official Repco history of the F1
engine.  ( Which was absurd )
>>

I didn't know that.

<<
Whilst Tony knew him better - there is no doubt Phil was capable
of being a cantankerous old bastard at times.
>>

I didn't know him well, I'd just met him a couple of times, and your comment
on a part of his character does not run counter to my actual experience.
As along with Vic W. and John Surtees, he'd been my boyhood hero, it came as
something of a shock and disappointment that he did his best to humiliate me
in front of others when as a teenager I had the audacity to question whether
the magic castor angle of 27deg was really necessary.  His reaction probably
delayed my experiments in this direction by several years.
Some years later when I met him again, I was careful not to say anything to
treaten long held beliefs and he was then quite forthcoming on his
experiences at Repco. (from his view point of course)

Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 08:34:37 -0700
From: Marty Maclean 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Repco Brabham.

Ian Drysdale wrote:

> 
> Judd was his name - later had more success in his F1 engine designs.
> 

Ian - do you have much information on the Judd engine? I was under the
vague understanding that it was something on the order of a Honda with
different valve covers and a way for Honda to achieve development time
without sullying the Company name. But, I do not know what I'm talking
about on this at all. Any insights?

Marty

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:49:38 -0500
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Re: Repco Braham

Tony-

What is "magic castor angle of 27deg" refer to? I have heard of some
significance of 27deg, but do not understand it's place in technology.
Thank you.

Mark V.S.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:06:44 -0400
From: "Peter Snell" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Braking/steering reactions mid-corner.

> 
> Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 06:55:50
> From: batwings@i-plus.net
> Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: A long brief comment,as requested.
> 
> At 06:09 PM 7/29/98 -0700, you wrote:
> >
> >       In reading Tony's reply to Mr Whittaker, I was reminded of a
> >question I kept asking myself this weekend as I came down the Sierra. Why
> >do bikes stand up when the front brake is applied while cornering and why
> >do some bikes do it so much more than others?
> 
> It's purely a function of tire width: when you brake while leaning, the
> forces are transmitted through a contact patch that is off center. This
> displaces the fork a bit and the gyroscopic reaction to that picks the bike
> up. It's the same as turning the fork deeper into a corner to cancel the
> turn and straighten up.
> 
> Hoyt
> 

   I think that's only partly right, since there are lots of bikes that
have pretty neutral steering while on the brakes/leaned over, and yet
have wheels/tires which are not extremely narrow. On the other hand some
bikes with narrow wheel/tire combinations are quite pronounced in this
characteristic. I think Tony's got it right, (as one might suspect), in
saying that it is the combination of factors that place the contact
patch in a particular position in regards the 'line of travel'. So it's
likely to be a combination of Rake/Trail/ and tire width and profile.
This seems to agree with my experience with bikes that have had triple
clamps that allowed adjustment of offset and therefore trail. I remember
one of the symptoms of having too little trail was a tendency of the
bike to either stand up while adjusting trail braking into the corner,
or to fall into the corner when the brakes were released.

- -- 
__
Pete Snell
Royal Military College       
Kingston, Ontario,      | We dance round in a ring and suppose,
Canada.                 | But the Secret sits in the middle and knows.
Snell-p@rmc.ca    	|      Robert Frost (1874-1963)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:31:22 -0400
From: "Calvin Grandy" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Yet more on turning

> Calvin said:
> 
> <<
> the very action of decreasing the
> turn radius without compensation by increased bank, will result in
> conversion of lateral acceleration forces
> >>
> 
> If a rider is on the limit, then by definition there is no more
lateral
> acceleration to be found, thus the action of steering further into
the bend
> will not result in "decreasing the turn radius", however the
precessional
> forces will still be in play.
> For those that are not cornering on the limit, then of course both
the
> steering back under AND precessional effects will come into play.
> 
Yes!  And the limit is most complex!  And like the constant c, is
often influenced by the observer.

A "high side" should not happen!  A bit of slide is often followed by
a most dramatic abundance of grip.  The sum of all forces over load
one or both tires, the slide allows release of angular acceleration
forces, unloaded of that burden, we are back on the "good side" of
the grip vs. loading curve. This event  can be dealt with
successfully many times in the same corner.  What would be the
limiting minimum duration of exceeding the limit?  A touch of power
can shift the load from front wheel to back as fast as chain can
tighten. 

I believe continued investigation of roll rates and attitude changes
would be the most enlightening.  The time domain may reveal what
forces alone do not.
  As your post indicates, there is (or should be) a nice catanary
response to inputs.  Accel/deccel. 
 I wish I could speak the language of math as fluently as my needs
require.
  I would propose the evaluation of some good cine footage,  frame by
frame .  

Regards

Calvin Grandy

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:03:20 -0400
From: "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle

I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle using
electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected by the
lateral g's. Does anybody have experience with this?

Geo 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:17:17 -0400
From: Paul Kellner 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Another shirt design

>However, you'll either have to have a word with your
>ISP and get eurospares.com mapped to your homepage, or put in the www. ;-)
>David T.

obviously I left that out on purpose, just checking if anyone would notice!
I wonder if someone spots the other deliberate mistake?

Paul

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:36:15 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Yet more on turning

Those who steer their motorcycles,

You all might enjoy a couple of student physics papers with illustrations
that can be found with the following search on the Infoseek search
engine. Type in the search box,

"Turning a motorcycle at high speeds"  (you should use the quote marks).
This should come up as the first result. Click for this and then scroll
pretty far down until you find papers "CR 410" and "CR 411"

The url is    http://physics.bu.edu/py105/PhysFair/Projects.html
But, for some reason, it doesn't seem to work directly.

By the way, I took the front wheel off of my mountain bike and spun the
wheel and gained some appreciation for the effects of the spinning wheel
on steering.

mitch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:44:56 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Yet more on turning

Hi again,

OF COURSE THE URL WORKED ONCE I PUBLISHED IT ON THE LIST

- -some typically perverse law of computer science no doubt!

mitch

Mitch Casto wrote:

> Those who steer their motorcycles,
>
> You all might enjoy a couple of student physics papers with illustrations
> that can be found with the following search on the Infoseek search
> engine. Type in the search box,
>
> "Turning a motorcycle at high speeds"  (you should use the quote marks).
> This should come up as the first result. Click for this and then scroll
> pretty far down until you find papers "CR 410" and "CR 411"
>
> The url is    http://physics.bu.edu/py105/PhysFair/Projects.html
> But, for some reason, it doesn't seem to work

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 14:08:16 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Guggenheim Museum Motorcycle Exhibit

Hi,

http://popularmechanics.com    has an article about the Guggehheim Museum
motorcycle exhibit that they wil be sending on tour around the world.

mitch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:59:30 -0500
From: jmark.vanscoter@amd.com
Subject: MC-Chassis New M/C Technology from September Cycle World

Normally a new motorcycle magazine does not cause much emotion within
me. However, the brand new issue of Cycle World has a some articles
about new technology that really caught my attention.

The newest Buell, the X1 Lightning, is reviewed. Big changes in the
frame (and everywhere else)including investment cast (!) joints that the
tubes fit into. (Page 42)

Small mention (page 27) about the latest on the Britten, this may be the
end. 

On Page 26 are details of the new BMW electro-magnetic valve actuation.
Intention is to allow an engine to run at one throttle opening (for
maximum efficiency of intake tract) and vary speed by changing
time/length of valve opening. Drawback-7000RPM maximum. (Good for
thumpers, though!)

Also, on pg 86, CW discuses the possibility of FIM changing 500GP racing
to 1000cc 4/stroke engines. The interesting part is all the details on
the FIA F1 engines and how far that is beyond 1000cc M/C engines.
Features like: bore/stroke ratios in the 1.8-2.25 range (89mmx40mm)
versus current Superbike ratios of 1.5-1.6, pneumatic valve-air pressure
not springs or levers close the valve. Estimated power: 235HP @
17,000rpm. Tires and chassis available to support this: NONE!  (CW also
speculates that all this talk is a ruse to get the owners of the
Superbike series to buy-out the GP series.)

Finally, 5-page story about riding the Vincent Black Shadow, 3 pages
about the new MV Agusta (with Ago riding on street), 9 page comparo
TL1000R vs. Duc 916 (Duc 2 sec faster per lap, Suz .1+5 mph faster in
1/4 mi.). 

IMHO, this is their greatest issue in years. (May be most V-twin stories
in a non-Harley mag ever!)

Mark

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 19:11:45
From: uranus 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Watkins Glen

>I can hardly be mistaken about being
>there: I met my (first) wife in the infield that year. 

Seeing that it was such a momentous day, and at the risk of exasperating
the other list readers, I shall continue.

For the Friday practice, Jim Clark drove a Lotus with the 2-litre Coventry
Climax V-8, as there was no start money, only prize money, so getting to
the finish was deemed more important than being quick.  During the second
practice (on the morning of race day) he realized he might actually WIN
with the H-16 engine (presuming it held together for once), so he switched
cars with Arundell.  Jim would definitely have had No.1 driver status
within the Lotus team, so it would have been his call.  From what you say,
Arundell might not have been so disappointed.  Jackie Stewart and Graham
Hill also had H16s, but in BRM's own chassis rather than a Lotus chassis -
they both broke down in the race.

Arundell's best qualifying time in the H16 was 1' 12.00" - Jim Clark posted
pole with 1' 08.53", that's how good he was.  I know a couple of people who
are old enough to have seen him drive and they both say he was the best
ever.  He did what Schumacher does now - he always made his team mate look
ordinary, even if the team mate was a pretty hot driver.

If you want any more info I'd better send it off list!!

Shame there isn't a US Grand Prix any more.  Does Watkins Glen still exist?
 Was it ever used for bikes?

David T.

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #712
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst         Friday, July 31 1998         Volume 01 : Number 713



 1. uranus       Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Wheel Nuts
 2. "Calvin Grandy"    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle
 3. "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle
 4. Dick Brewster  Subj: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle
 5. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Castor
 6. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles
 7. "Calvin Grandy"    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles
 8. Marty Maclean     Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: A long brief comment,as requested.
 9. "Brent Prindle"      Subj: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis
10. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?
11. authier@ibm.net                      Subj: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis
12. uranus       Subj: MC-Chassis Re: highsides
13. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Wheel Nuts
14. Marty Maclean     Subj: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis
15. authier@ibm.net                      Subj: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 20:11:50
From: uranus 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Wheel Nuts

> Believe it or not, some wheels *are* held on that way - most older
>aluminum wheels used shanked nuts, and a few steel wheels did too.  I
>happen to have some of each.
>
> Most wheels are located by the bolt pattern and the taper on the nuts
>or bolts; 

This isn't relevant to most motorcyles, but it IS to the front wheel of a
GTS1000 or my bike, and the back wheel of a VFR750.  

What are these wheels from that you mention?  On any normal wheel (i.e.
possibly not including your wheels) the shanked nuts etc. locate the wheel
in that they help to get the wheel on concentric with the hub before the
fasteners are torqued up, but I can't imagine that the clamp load after
torquing is so weak that it actually allows the wheel to rotate relative to
the hub to the extent where the fasteners experience a sideways load on the
fastener shank.  I would find such a situation rather alarming.   A splined
design with a clamp nut would be a different proposition. 

David T.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 15:50:10 -0400
From: "Calvin Grandy" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle

We could pull an artificial horizon indicator from some private
aircraft.  24+ volts to run the gyro motor perhaps.
One of the new electronic levels (hardware store) may be modified for
output.  I do not know details.

Regards

Calvin Grandy


- ----------
> From: van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092) 
> To: 'mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com'
> Subject: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 1:03 PM
> 
> I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle using
> electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected by
the
> lateral g's. Does anybody have experience with this?
> 
> Geo 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 16:31:02 -0400
From: "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle

	******
> We could pull an artificial horizon indicator from some private
> aircraft.  24+ volts to run the gyro motor perhaps.
> One of the new electronic levels (hardware store) may be modified for
> output.  I do not know details.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Calvin Grandy
	 **** 
	I think a smaller (not necessarily easier ...) solution would be so
use the gyro from a radio controlled helicopter. I am not sure if these
devices will work. I was hoping somebody knew of a clever way to use 2 or 3
accelerometers to cancel out the effects of the lateral acceleration. 

	Regards,

	Geo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 13:37:54 -0700
From: Dick Brewster 
Subject: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle

Geo wrote:

<< I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle
using
electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected
by the
lateral g's. Does anybody have experience with this?

Geo >>

Not on motorcycles, but have used gyros to angular displacement
on other equipment. The instrumentation gyros I was using were
undoubtedly expensive.

If money is an issue, you might look into the gyros that are used
in model helicopters. Of course you will have to determine if
they are accurate enough, have a low enough drift rate etc.

Dick

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:02:23 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Castor

Mark asked:

<<
What is "magic castor angle of 27deg" refer to? I have heard of some
significance of 27deg, but do not understand it's place in technology.
>>

It has no special place, but it was long thought by many that it was
necessary to have a castor angle of very close to 27deg in order to have
good handling.
Many times it was mentioned in print by those who should have known better
that this angle was critical to within 1/2deg.

Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 23:20:56 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles

Geo asked:

<<
I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle using
electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected by the
lateral g's.
>>

You might find a gyroscope of some use.

Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:35:15 -0400
From: "Calvin Grandy" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles

The gyro itself is perhaps the most useful reference, but I can
imagine the extra complexity of reading the values of tilt off the
graduated gimbals.  All in a 10/10th's cornering situation.  
A small  motor driven ( we could use air (suction)as in aircraft if
desired) gyro could be coupled to a linear transducer , or even a
rotary potentiometer.  Recorded out puts  (A mall strip chart
recorder any one?) backed by a look up table of resistance verses
tilts generated in the shop, could provide all the data one could
desire.  

We are back to the Data logging topic, which always looks like
several $K to start.


Regards

Calvin Grandy
- ----------
> From: Tony Foale 
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles
> Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 5:20 PM
> 
> Geo asked:
> 
> <<
> I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle using
> electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected by
the
> lateral g's.
> >>
> 
> You might find a gyroscope of some use.
> 
> Tony Foale
> 
> España ( Spain )
> http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos
> 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 12:01:13 -0700
From: Marty Maclean 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: A long brief comment,as requested.

Tony Foale wrote:
> 
> ...to comment on the letter in the
> July issue of Roadracing World by Vernon Whittaker. 

Nice shot...

It's not the first time RW has had that type of article.

	Marty

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 17:35:45 -0700
From: "Brent Prindle" 
Subject: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis

A couple of years ago, Falicon branched out from just doing cranks and are
selling connecting rods as well.  They had a good rep for cranks, has anyone
tried their conrods?

- -oo
BrentP@msn.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:03:31 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?

Has anyone heard of cranks that are hollow ?  I heard that this was done to
lighten them so that the engine could get the rpms up faster.

mitch

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:27:17 -0700
From: authier@ibm.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis

Brent Prindle wrote:
> 
> A couple of years ago, Falicon branched out from just doing cranks and are
> selling connecting rods as well.  They had a good rep for cranks, has anyone
> tried their conrods?
> 
> -oo
> BrentP@msn.com
Hi boys,

I personally have never seen or handled one, but the guy who made a
BEAUTIFUL custom rod for my 750cc KLR motor told me that the rods he had
seen had sloppy machinging and lots of sharp edges.  Most listers are
probably bright enough to know what that means.  I guess that I have to
say that I trust his judgement, he is the most retentive (in a good way)
engine builder I have ever had the pleasure of working with. 

Marc Authier

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 10:10:32
From: uranus 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: highsides

>A "high side" should not happen!  A bit of slide is often followed by
>a most dramatic abundance of grip.  

I remember reading somewhere that maximum tractive force is actually
developed when the tyre is slipping by about 10% relative to the road
surface.  I think this was from a very old book about drag racing so it may
not relate well to modern tyres.  However it seems to match up to
experience, in that cornering speed and control are better with the tyres
just starting to slide noticeably (some kind of slip angle experienced in
the feel at the handlebar).  It seems to me that there is a limited zone in
which the tyres are sliding and grip is better, followed shortly by another
zone in which the tyres are sliding more and grip is rapidly declining -
the "low-side" or traditional crash beckons, bringing an instinctive
closing of the throttle, whereupon the tyres may equally rapidly return to
the "sliding-a-bit-but-gripping-a-lot" state, and the sudden increase in
resistance to lateral motion is what causes the "high-side".  It's the
suddenness of the transition that will throw you off - it's never happened
to me [touch wood] but I've been close enough for discomfort.  A wide
controllable slide zone is a desirable attribute for a "sports" road tyre,
but tyre manufacturers don't talk in these terms, so one has to buy on
hearsay.

David T.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 22:00:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Wheel Nuts

- -> What are these wheels from that you mention?  On any normal wheel
- -> (i.e. possibly not including your wheels) the shanked nuts etc.
- -> locate the wheel

 Practically all aftermarket aluminum wheels used shanked nuts not too
long ago, and so did the OEM aluminum and "styled steel" wheels on the
GM Monza/Vega series.  I have that sort of setup on my wife's Capri.


- -> in that they help to get the wheel on concentric with the hub before
- -> the fasteners are torqued up, but I can't imagine that the clamp load

 Most car wheels have substantial clearance around the center hub; the
location is by the nuts.  "Hub-centric" wheels are becoming more common,
though.


- -> fasteners are torqued up, but I can't imagine that the clamp load
- -> after torquing is so weak that it actually allows the wheel to rotate
- -> relative to the hub

 When you're dealing with 3500+ pounds of immovable object and 900+
pounds of irresistible force (engine * first gear * axle ratio) the
wheels *will* move if they can.  Most shanked nut setups wind up, due to
manufacturing tolerances, having an interference fit on at least one
lug, which helps keep things from fretting too much.  It's not all that
uncommon for modified cars to simply shear the studs right off the axle;
compared to that a little wheel movement is nothing.


- -> fastener shank.  I would find such a situation rather alarming.   A
- -> splined design with a clamp nut would be a different proposition.

 Splines still have clearance to allow assembly; a friend's Austin Healy
always made clicking noises when letting off the throttle.

==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                                                                           

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:14:49 -0700
From: Marty Maclean 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis

authier@ibm.net wrote:
> 

> 
> I personally have never seen or handled one, but the guy who made a
> BEAUTIFUL custom rod for my 750cc KLR motor...
> 
> Marc Authier


C'mon, Marc! Who made your rod?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 07:33:52 -0700
From: authier@ibm.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis

Marty Maclean wrote:
> 
> authier@ibm.net wrote:
> >
> 
> >
> > I personally have never seen or handled one, but the guy who made a
> > BEAUTIFUL custom rod for my 750cc KLR motor...
> >
> > Marc Authier
> 
> C'mon, Marc! Who made your rod?

Good AM,

STEVE KESSELRING QUALITY ENGINE R & D in Dothan AL.

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #713
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst        Saturday, August 1 1998        Volume 01 : Number 714



 1. Marty Maclean     Subj: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis
 2. authier@ibm.net                      Subj: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis
 3. Bill Heckel            Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?
 4. "Jim Schneider"    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis
 5. dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams) Subj: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?
 6. eric sherrer  Subj: MC-Chassis Lean Angle
 7. Ian Drysdale      Subj: MC-Chassis Judd not Honda ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:14:15 -0700
From: Marty Maclean 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis

authier@ibm.net wrote:
> 

> > > I personally have never seen or handled one, but the guy who made a
> > > BEAUTIFUL custom rod for my 750cc KLR motor...
> > >
> > > Marc Authier

> 
> STEVE KESSELRING QUALITY ENGINE R & D in Dothan AL.

Thanks... Number? Address?

M

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:23:50 -0700
From: authier@ibm.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis

Marty Maclean wrote:
> 
> authier@ibm.net wrote:
> >
> 
> > > > I personally have never seen or handled one, but the guy who made a
> > > > BEAUTIFUL custom rod for my 750cc KLR motor...
> > > >
> > > > Marc Authier
> 
> >
> > STEVE KESSELRING QUALITY ENGINE R & D in Dothan AL.
> 
> Thanks... Number? Address?
> 
> M
Hi Marty,

You can reach Steve at: 334-693-9203.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:53:06 -0400
From: Bill Heckel 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?

Most 4 stroke cranks ARE hollow already, the're just filled with oil.  I guess
you could increase the oil galley size in the crank but that may be a balancing
nightmare...

Mitch Casto wrote:
> 
> Has anyone heard of cranks that are hollow ?  I heard that this was done to
> lighten them so that the engine could get the rpms up faster.
> 
> mitch

- -- 
Bill Heckel

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 13:32:57 -0600
From: "Jim Schneider" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis

What material did he use?

Jim
Swiss
- -----Original Message-----
From: Marty Maclean 
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com 
Date: Friday, July 31, 1998 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis motor, not chassis


>> 
>> STEVE KESSELRING QUALITY ENGINE R & D in Dothan AL.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 08:29:00 -0500
From: dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us (Dave Williams)
Subject: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?

- -> Has anyone heard of cranks that are hollow ?  I heard that this was
- -> done to lighten them so that the engine could get the rpms up faster.

 Depending on how it's done, the hollow cranks can actually be stronger
than solid ones.  Some very expensive billet car cranks are hollow; so
were the Pontiac 301 and Ford 255, but they did it to save weight.

==dave.williams@chaos.lrk.ar.us======================================
I've got a secret / I've been hiding / under my skin / | Who are you?
my heart is human / my blood is boiling / my brain IBM |   who, who?
=================================== http://home1.gte.net/42/index.htm
                                                          

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:52:36 -0700
From: eric sherrer 
Subject: MC-Chassis Lean Angle

> I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle using
> electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected by
>the lateral g's.


How about a small outboard third wheel touching the ground with a pivot 
on the frame? The third leg of the resulting trangle could be a linear 
pot.

Eric

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 12:40:01 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale 
Subject: MC-Chassis Judd not Honda ?

> Ian - do you have much information on the Judd engine? I was under the
> vague understanding that it was something on the order of a Honda with
> different valve covers and a way for Honda to achieve development time
> without sullying the Company name. But, I do not know what I'm talking
> about on this at all. Any insights?

Similarly I don't follow F1 religously - but I recall you are right
( & wrong ) - the Judd motor was 'rebadged' - but I think it was
a Porsche motor ??  Anyone else follow it more closely ?

You are also half right about the Honda - they were tied up with
Mugen - actually run by the son of the founder of Honda MC Co.
It was said to be a face saving exercise so Honda could still be
involved in F1 while they concentrated on the Indy cart motor.

BTW - does anyone know where I can get a copy of Honda's
biograghy ?  He was a fascinating character by all accounts - I
read a bit about the years before he started making bikes .  He
sold a business making piston rings and bought a huge quantity
of industrial alcohol and got drunk for 2 years.

Similarly his son ( founder of Mugen ? ) dropped out for a couple
of years in the Californian hippie culture in the 60's.

Cheers   IAN

- --
Ian Drysdale

DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #714
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst         Sunday, August 2 1998         Volume 01 : Number 715



 1. Dick Brewster  Subj: MC-Chassis RE: Hollow cranks
 2. Ian Drysdale      Subj: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?
 3. "Michael Moore"   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?
 4. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis RE: Hollow cranks
 5. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Soichiro Honda & Question: Technical books online?
 6. "Sam Stoney"      Subj: MC-Chassis Honda biography?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 01 Aug 1998 20:02:39 -0700
From: Dick Brewster 
Subject: MC-Chassis RE: Hollow cranks

Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 11:53:06 -0400
From: Bill Heckel 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?

Most 4 stroke cranks ARE hollow already, the're just filled with
oil.  I guess
you could increase the oil galley size in the crank but that may
be a balancing
nightmare...

Mitch Casto wrote:
> 
> Has anyone heard of cranks that are hollow ?  I heard that this was done to
> lighten them so that the engine could get the rpms up faster.
> 
> mitch

- - -- 
Bill Heckel


A bit off topic, but 1983 Toyota Camry 2 liter four crank was
very hollow. It had large passages through the center three mains
and all four rod throws. The holes were more than large enough to
stick your finger through them.  It was a beautiful casting.

If Toyota did that for an 80 hp 2 liter engine that developed
peak power at 4,000 rpm, it made me wonder what they did in their
more exotic engines.

Dick

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 13:20:35 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale 
Subject: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?

> Most 4 stroke cranks ARE hollow already, the're just filled with oil.  I guess
> you could increase the oil galley size in the crank but that may be a balancing
> nightmare...

Most ?  I don't know of any hollow bike cranks.  Certainly not any of
the Japanese 4 cyl stuff.  I've seen the bigend journals of car and
aircraft cranks bored out for mass reduction - but you then have to
plug the ends to allow oiling.

BTW - anyone want to have a bash at the maths in the aircraft cranks
with the loose counterweights ?  For the uninitiated - they are really
loose - I'd guess 10 mm movement.



> What material did he use?
>

I'm about to make some rods and I am using EN 25 - a good high
tensile gear steel with nice machining qualities.  The nearest US
equivalent is 4340 I believe.  We had a touring car racing class
here that had to use stock cast rods up until a couple of years ago
and they had few failures - but they tossed the rods ( and cast
crank ) in the bin after 800 race kilometres.  ( 500 mile )  This
made the Bathurst 1000 touch and go.


Cheers   IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale

DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 22:41:04 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Hollow cranks ?

> Most ?  I don't know of any hollow bike cranks.  Certainly not any of
> the Japanese 4 cyl stuff.  I've seen the bigend journals of car and
> aircraft cranks bored out for mass reduction - but you then have to
> plug the ends to allow oiling.

Hello Ian,

Some race car cranks have big hollows in the crank pin area of the
flywheels, but not to the point of impinging on the oil gallery to
the big ends. 

> I'm about to make some rods and I am using EN 25 - a good high
> tensile gear steel with nice machining qualities.  The nearest US
> equivalent is 4340 I believe.  We had a touring car racing class

Carrillo rods are 4340 forgings.  They normally use 1/4" or 5/16" 
bolts on the bike rods.

Cheers,
Michael 
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 6 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 06:46:07
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis RE: Hollow cranks

>Mitch Casto wrote:
>> 
>> Has anyone heard of cranks that are hollow ?  I heard that this was done to
>> lighten them so that the engine could get the rpms up faster.
>> 

Think aircraft. All those have forged cranks and they are machined very
hollow. They even have to use plugs and seals in them to seal off oil
passages. They look very light too, with thin flyweight/pin webs, etc. Even
the camshafts in these notors are drilled through.

Hoyt



 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 02 Aug 1998 22:55:53 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Soichiro Honda & Question: Technical books online?

Ian Drysdale wrote:

> BTW - does anyone know where I can get a copy of Honda's
> biograghy ?  He was a fascinating character by all accounts - I
> read a bit about the years before he started making bikes .  He
> sold a business making piston rings and bought a huge quantity
> of industrial alcohol and got drunk for 2 years.

  Hi Ian,

I haven't found a source to get Honda's biography. But, if put in the search
words:

Soichiro Honda

at          http://lcweb2.loc.gov/catalog

you will find several titles that are about him and his company.

In lieu of an actual book, if you search, "Soichiro Honda" on  GoTo.com you
will find many short biographical bits. I on't read French, but one title
teased me "Le Secret De Honda"-  http://focusintl.com/honda.htm

One site said that he opened his first business "with one belt-driven
lathe"-


QUESTION: Has anyone found a good website for buying technical books that
would stock the sorts of things that would be beneficial to this list? It
doesn't and probably wouldn't focus on motorcycles.

mitch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 2 Aug 1998 20:21:11 -0700
From: "Sam Stoney" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Honda biography?

Ian asks:

BTW - does anyone know where I can get a copy of Honda's
biograghy ?  

Me too. Everything I've ever read about the man intrigues me. I've kept my
eyes open for one and never run across it. Somebody must have written
one...

Sam

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #715
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst        Tuesday, August 4 1998        Volume 01 : Number 716



 1. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Funny questions
 2. Ian Drysdale      Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #715
 3. Mitch Casto   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #715
 4. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Soichiro Honda
 5. Marty Maclean     Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Soichiro Honda
 6. yhakim@m5.sprynet.com                Subj: MC-Chassis Lateral suspension/FFE's
 7. "Glenn Thomson"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles
 8. Brian Knowles    Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Soichiro Honda
 9. "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 10:30:28 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Funny questions

Ian asked:

<<
BTW - anyone want to have a bash at the maths in the aircraft cranks
with the loose counterweights ?
>>

What specifically do you want to know?

Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:27:47 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #715

> Me too. Everything I've ever read about the man intrigues me. I've kept my
> eyes open for one and never run across it. Somebody must have written
> one...
>
> Sam

There was one released shortly befrore or after his death - but I think
it was in Japanese.  I remember an English version was promised but
I never heard any more about it.

Cheers   IAN

- --
Ian Drysdale

DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 09:56:00 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #715

Ian and Sam,

There are 4 books listed about Soichiro Honda in english and two in japanese in
the U.S. Library of Congress catalog. You can see the titles, etc. if you follow
the link in my last post. After, you do the search using his name, you do have
to scroll down the page a ways.

mitch

Ian Drysdale wrote:

> > Me too. Everything I've ever read about the man intrigues me. I've kept my
> > eyes open for one and never run across it. Somebody must have written
> > one...
> >
> > Sam
>
> There was one released shortly befrore or after his death - but I think
> it was in Japanese.  I remember an English version was promised but
> I never heard any more about it.
>
> Cheers   IAN
>
> --
> Ian Drysdale
>
> DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
> Melbourne. Australia
> http://werple.net.au/~iwd
> Ph. + 613 9562 4260
> Fax.+ 613 9546 8938

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 16:06:08 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Soichiro Honda

Ian and Sam,

Once again, http://www.amazon.com has the book(s). They have in stock a book
titled,  High Mileage: the business philosophy of Soichiro Honda.  They list others
that are out-of-print and say that they'll try to get them. Might try Barnes and
Noble alos.

mitch

ps I once read a book that may have been titled, Small Wonder. It was about the
beginnings of the VW Beetle. I found it more interesting from the angle of a
biography of Dr. Porsche. There was a very open minded approach in the development
of this car. They even considered to radial piston engine layouts from aircraft.
Some of the dark side shows through in that Nazi Storm Troopers drove the protypes
around the clock in testing. The book left me with the impression that Porsche was
not involved so much as a hands on engineer, but as an engineering director with
whole teams assigned to different aspects of the design.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 14:00:48 -0700
From: Marty Maclean 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Soichiro Honda

Mitch Casto wrote:
> 
> .... The book left me with the impression that Porsche was
> not involved so much as a hands on engineer, but as an engineering director with
> whole teams assigned to different aspects of the design.

Ferdinand Porsche was indeed the main dude on the VW Beetle, original
version, but also had major input on the design, having brought the
basic layout and (his) drawings with him from Auto Union. A number of
prototypes had actually been built throughout the 30's with a wide range
of engine configurations - singles, twins & 4s (perhaps a 2-stroke, too,
but I forget) - but the layout of the vehicle, silhouette, etc were all
clearly what was to evolve into the VW. 

They had an interesting payment plan, too. You could sign up to finance
your car, make monthly payments to the Reich, and then when it was all
paid for, receive your car. Neat scam, huh?

Porsche was also responsible for some of the Panzers.

	Marty

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 18:09:45 -0700
From: yhakim@m5.sprynet.com
Subject: MC-Chassis Lateral suspension/FFE's

Any FFE would seem to have much greater lateral rigidity than tele's.
Has anyone found the lack of lateral absobtion to be a problem?
I remember Alan Cathart(?) writing a review of the Britten and had 
nothing bad to say about the handling. 
Either way I have to assume that at my club level speeds, stiffer is 
better, but assuming that I could go fast enough, would there be a 
problem.
Along the same vein, the 750 superbikes have gotten to the point where 
the forks have reached a level where stiffer forks will degrade mid 
corner bump absorbtion. Now a 125GP bike has comparativly large forks 
for the weight and corner speeds.
If the forks are being used to absord lateral bumps at high lean 
angles, wouldn't a lighter faster cornering bike need really spindly 
legs to absorb the same bumps?


Yousuf 
wmrra #935
FZR400/600

	+-------------------+
	|    LICK HERE!!!   |
	|                   |
	|         *         |
	|                   |
	| (You may be one   |
	|  of the lucky 25) |
	+-------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 21:32:42 +0000
From: "Glenn Thomson" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles

On 30 Jul 98, Calvin Grandy wrote:

> The gyro itself is perhaps the most useful reference, but I can
> imagine the extra complexity of reading the values of tilt off the
> graduated gimbals.  All in a 10/10th's cornering situation.  
> A small  motor driven ( we could use air (suction)as in aircraft if
> desired) gyro could be coupled to a linear transducer , or even a
> rotary potentiometer.  Recorded out puts  (A mall strip chart
> recorder any one?) backed by a look up table of resistance verses
> tilts generated in the shop, could provide all the data one could
> desire.  
> ----------
> > From: Tony Foale 
> > To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> > Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles
> > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 5:20 PM
> > 
> > Geo asked:
> > 
> > <<
> > I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle using
> > electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected by
> the
> > lateral g's.
> > >>
> > 
> > You might find a gyroscope of some use.
> > 
> > Tony Foale
>

Reviewing this, I didn't see any mention of 'real-time' angle 
measurement.  Is it needed for your purpose?

Cheers,

Glenn
gthomson(at)bserv.com
   Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 3 Aug 98 20:52:50 -0700
From: Brian Knowles 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Soichiro Honda

>Mitch Casto wrote:
>> 
>> .... The book left me with the impression that Porsche was
>> not involved so much as a hands on engineer, but as an engineering director 
>with
>> whole teams assigned to different aspects of the design.
>
>Ferdinand Porsche was indeed the main dude on the VW Beetle, original
>version, but also had major input on the design, having brought the
>basic layout and (his) drawings with him from Auto Union. A number of
>prototypes had actually been built throughout the 30's with a wide range
>of engine configurations - singles, twins & 4s (perhaps a 2-stroke, too,
>but I forget) - but the layout of the vehicle, silhouette, etc were all
>clearly what was to evolve into the VW. 
>
>They had an interesting payment plan, too. You could sign up to finance
>your car, make monthly payments to the Reich, and then when it was all
>paid for, receive your car. Neat scam, huh?
>
>Porsche was also responsible for some of the Panzers.
>
>	Marty

He was also responsible for the 1948 (?) Cisitalia Grand Prix car, which 
I guess may be regarded as the final development of the Auto-Union... and 
was a tecnological tour de force in its own right..

Brian

Brian

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:08:47 -0400 
From: "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Glenn Thomson [SMTP:gthomson@bserv.com]
> Sent:	Monday, August 03, 1998 5:33 PM
> To:	mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject:	Re: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles
> 
> ******
> Reviewing this, I didn't see any mention of 'real-time' angle 
> measurement.  Is it needed for your purpose?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Glenn
> gthomson(at)bserv.com
>    Waterloo, Ontario, CANADA
> 
	Yes, I would like to measure the lean angle at a fairly high scan
frequency. I would definitely try to do this electronically. The best ways I
could come up with was either the gyro, or possibly sensors that measure
distance from the side. By knowing that the distance has decreased to x, it
would be fairly simple to calculate the lean angle. Not very practical. The
gyro is nice, but I am having a hard time getting literature on the
communications protocol used for these things. Digital, I assume.

	Regards,

	Geo

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #716
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst       Wednesday, August 5 1998       Volume 01 : Number 717



 1. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: FFE
 2. "Tony Foale"        Subj: MC-Chassis Re: LeanAngle
 3. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Re:Measuring Lean Angle
 4. "Thomas Alberti"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles
 5. "Stewart Roger Milton"  Subj: MC-Chassis Re:Measuring Lean Angle
 6. RWa11@aol.com                        Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Re:Measuring Lean Angle
 7. Alan Lapp  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle
 8. Bill Heckel            Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
 9. Ian Drysdale      Subj: MC-Chassis Rattling cranks.
10. "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
11. Mitch Casto   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:46:10 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: FFE

Yousuf,

Go for the stiffness and then you'll be able to steer around the bumps.

Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 16:51:35 +0200
From: "Tony Foale" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: LeanAngle

Geo said:

<<
. By knowing that the distance has decreased to x, it
would be fairly simple to calculate the lean angle. Not very practical
>>

Third wheels or other means of measuring distance to ground would be
inadequately accurate.
Obviously you couldn't mount them on a sprung part of the bike, and even if
they were on the unsprung part you still have tyre deflection to contend
with, not to mention road camber.
Stick to a gyro.

Tony Foale

España ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 13:21:34 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re:Measuring Lean Angle

Geo, et al,

To measure lean angle:

A low tech solution might be to have a friend with big cojones stand in line of
the apex or other systematic points with a protractor with a level along its
bottom. Maybe put it on a tipod. Brave friend could eyeball the angle. Could be
an exciting new sport!

mitch

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 12:33:40 -0500
From: "Thomas Alberti" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angles

> The
> gyro is nice, but I am having a hard time getting literature on the
> communications protocol used for these things. Digital, I assume.
> 
> 	Regards,
> 
> 	Geo

Typically, the gyro will generate a voltage. For example, -5v to +5v full
range. This would be an analog signal, although I wouldn't doubt that you
could find those with digital output.

Thomas

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 20:24:18 +0200
From: "Stewart Roger Milton" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re:Measuring Lean Angle

- ----------
> From: Mitch Casto 

> To measure lean angle:
> 
> A low tech solution might be to have a friend with big cojones stand in
line of
> the apex or other systematic points with a protractor with a level along
its
> bottom. Maybe put it on a tipod. Brave friend could eyeball the angle.
Could be
> an exciting new sport!

I'd suggest mounting a high speed camera on the tripod, and use the
protractor after the film is developed. It might just be a little bit more
accurate! These cameras can be used for taking pictures of a bullet going
through a sheet of paper etc. so should catch your point of max lean angle.
Providing of course that you put it in exactly the right place,  at exactly
the right height, and point it in exactly the right direction.

Purely as an aside, I once wrote off a Ducati Mike Hailwood Replica,
pulling a stunt similar to the one above, only with a hand held, still
camera. Luckily on the eventful run the guy holding it was on the inside of
the turn... Got a nice pic of the fairing about to lever the rear wheel off
the ground! It seems whenever I pick a favourite corner and see how fast I
can go round it I end up finding a speed that I can't go round it. I
stopped the exercise after the Ducati incident!

Stewart

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:03:59 EDT
From: RWa11@aol.com
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Re:Measuring Lean Angle

In a message dated 98-08-04 14:57:08 EDT, you write:

<< I'd suggest mounting a high speed camera on the tripod, and use the
 protractor after the film is developed. It might just be a little bit more
 accurate! These cameras can be used for taking pictures of a bullet going
 through a sheet of paper etc. so should catch your point of max lean angle.
 Providing of course that you put it in exactly the right place,  at exactly
 the right height, and point it in exactly the right direction. >>
 

How about a video camera mounted on the bike.  Then you could load frames on
your computer and measure them with a cad program.  It would help if you had a
good horizon to measure from.  I would suggest mounting the camera on the back
and pointing backward to avoid complexities of the fork motion.

Rex Wallace

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 15:21:11 +0100
From: Alan Lapp 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle

>We could pull an artificial horizon indicator from some private
>aircraft.  24+ volts to run the gyro motor perhaps.
>One of the new electronic levels (hardware store) may be modified for
>output.  I do not know details.
>
>Regards
>
>Calvin Grandy
>
>
>----------
>> From: van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092) 
>> To: 'mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com'
>> Subject: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle
>> Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 1:03 PM
>>
>> I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle using
>> electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected by
>the
>> lateral g's. Does anybody have experience with this?
>>
>> Geo

I just returned from my first endurance effort (I was crew chief, we
finished despite 2 crashes, TYVM).  Max McAlister of Traxxion Dynamics was
using Army of Darkness as a test bed for Drack data loggers.  He's planning
on carrying their line of products, and this is a learning experience for
them.

They use a product which is called a gyro, but isn't technically a gyro -
there aren't any spinning bits inside.  According to Max, it has a sprung
mass with some type of sensors.  Max indicated that this particular device
is plug & play for the Drack unit, and cost about $300.

In any case, it has really peaked my interest - the base price for the
logger is under $2K, with the cost rising as the sensors are added.  A
fairly complete system was said to cost under $3K.

Does anyone know of sites/lists for homebrew data acquisition?  I know
several hardware & software people who would be terribly interested in such
a project.

In my brief analysis of the problem, there are 3 subsystems to design.
Input/sensors: throttle position, brake pressure (front and rear), wheel
speed (front and rear) suspension travel, and a gyro.  Analog/digital
conversions, and finally, storage/interface.

BTW, Drack has their software on their website free for download.  I'm
sorry, but I don't have the addy, but I'll bet it can be found easily with
a search engine.

Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 17:10:03 -0400
From: Bill Heckel 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

Some comments on rolling your own DA system:

Alan Lapp wrote:
> 
> >
> >> I was wondering how to measure the lean angle on a motorcycle using
> >> electronic equipment.  A single accelerometer would be affected by
> >the
> >> lateral g's. Does anybody have experience with this?
> >>
> 
> 
> Does anyone know of sites/lists for homebrew data acquisition?  I know
> several hardware & software people who would be terribly interested in such
> a project.
> 
> In my brief analysis of the problem, there are 3 subsystems to design.
> Input/sensors: throttle position, brake pressure (front and rear), wheel
> speed (front and rear) suspension travel, and a gyro.  Analog/digital
> conversions, and finally, storage/interface.

I will tackle this in reverse order.  
Data assumptions:
 8 analog inputs, 12-16 bit resolution, (16 bits per sample) 
 100 Hz sample rate 
 30 minute storage with timestamps =~16 bytes per sample line
 (8*2+16) * 60 * 30 = 57600  or well within 64k memory requirements

CPU / AD requirements-
 low power 
 must make 800 Samples/second ( this is trivial! 1M samples/sec is common now )
 64Kb of sample ram
 serial port to download and configure.
 battery operated
 light weight
 electrically shielded from ignition noise etc.

Sensors:
  Variable resistors: 
2   suspension movement
1   TPS
  Voltage Out ( 0-5v )
2   0-1000 PSI pressure sensors ( brakes )
1   RPM  ( use a F-V converter )
1   Gyro
1   Accellerometer

Add these up and we have 8 inputs on analog channels - probably enough for a
good datalogger.

An off the shelf system that include most of these features can be found ( for
example, I haven't used these boards ) at the TERN website
http://www.tern.com/c-engine.htm
I would add the 11 channel 12 bit AD, the 128K SRAM, RTC, VE232, low power and
DEBUG/MON for a total 1 pc cost of: $303.00 

You still need to write software, build an enclosure, possibly design some
signal conditioning and make a lot of cables but....
 
> BTW, Drack has their software on their website free for download.  I'm
> sorry, but I don't have the addy, but I'll bet it can be found easily with
> a search engine.
> 
> Al
> level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

- -- 
Bill Heckel
Chief Technologist
Virtual Motion Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 09:45:55 +1000
From: Ian Drysdale 
Subject: MC-Chassis Rattling cranks.

> What specifically do you want to know?
>
> Tony Foale



OK Tony - since you have taken up the challenge.....

( It's off list a bit but aircraft stuff is similar to bike stuff in
that both are chasing lowest mass with max power )

1/ - Why ?  I could see more justification if the counterweights
       were only free to move in one plane ( no pun intended ) but
       they are typically mounted on 2 pins with ( I'm guessing )
       10 mm of movement.   So each CW is free move in 2 linear
        planes ( from the view of the crank ) and one rotational
        plane.

2/- I assume the whole idea is to reduce weight somehow for the
      same balance effect ( hence the application to bikes ) but
      I can't get my brain around it.  I did all my own calc's on my
      V8 crank and it came out within 16 grams when it was
      balanced - but where do you start when the CW's are loose ??

3/- What is their location most of the time ?  The centrifical
      force will throw them out against the pins - OK - but the
      slight angular velocity variations ( more pronounced at idle)
      in will have them move backwards and fowards at the top
      of this pin/hole arrangement a bit.

4/ - How does this justify all the added complication of the design?

I have only ever seen a vague reference to this setup in a book on
cranks once which lead me to believe that the author didn't
understand the reason behind it either.

Crank counterweights are only of use redirecting the primary phase
vibration and I can't see how a loose CW helps here.  The only
possible reason I have been able to come up with is that with no
fixed primary vibe direction there may be less resonance problems.
i.e - wings shaking off etc ??

Please enlighten.


Cheers   IAN
- --
Ian Drysdale

DRYSDALE MOTORCYCLE CO.
Melbourne. Australia
http://werple.net.au/~iwd
Ph. + 613 9562 4260
Fax.+ 613 9546 8938

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:23:44 -0400 
From: "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

>  (8*2+16) * 60 * 30 = 57600  or well within 64k memory requirements
> -- 
> Bill Heckel
> Chief Technologist
> Virtual Motion Inc.
> 
> 
	32 bits * 8 Channels * 100 Hz * 60 Seconds * 30 Minutes = 4608000
BITS	(or 5.5 Mbytes)

	That is slightly more than the 64 Kbytes that is easily addressable
in with 80x86 series. C will allow you up to 1 Mbyte with large memory
model, but after that it is time for some more advanced methods. In fact,
the memory management is one of the difficulties of developing a data
logger.

	Geo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 08:42:34 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

Geo,

Is this done by car race teams to a central computer not on the vehicle by
radio signals?

mitch

>  In fact,
> the memory management is one of the difficulties of developing a data
> logger.
>
> Geo

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #717
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst        Thursday, August 6 1998        Volume 01 : Number 718



 1. "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
 2. Bill Heckel            Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
 3. "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)"  Subj: MC-Chassis Datalogger Memory
 4. Bill Heckel            Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Datalogger Memory
 5. Alan Lapp  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
 6. "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
 7. "Griffiths, Duncan"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
 8. Marty Maclean     Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
 9. "Thomas Alberti"  Subj: MC-Chassis Non-Topic: Honda Part Needed
10. "Michael Moore"   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Non-Topic: Honda Part Needed
11. "Thomas Alberti"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Non-Topic: Honda Part Needed
12. "Thomas Alberti"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Non-Topic: OOOPS!
13. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Aircraft engines- 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 08:52:31 -0400 
From: "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

Thats a good question Mitch. It is not that difficult to store the stuff in
memory, but I think you are right about just sending the stuff out to a
central computer for real time analysis and storage.

Geo

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Mitch Casto [SMTP:mccast@wvit.wvnet.edu]
> Sent:	Wednesday, August 05, 1998 8:43 AM
> To:	mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject:	Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)
> 
> Geo,
> 
> Is this done by car race teams to a central computer not on the vehicle by
> radio signals?
> 
> mitch
> 
> >  In fact,
> > the memory management is one of the difficulties of developing a data
> > logger.
> >
> > Geo
> 
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 12:38:28 -0400
From: Bill Heckel 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092) wrote:
> 
> >  (8*2+16) * 60 * 30 = 57600  or well within 64k memory requirements
> > --
> > Bill Heckel

>         32 bits * 8 Channels * 100 Hz * 60 Seconds * 30 Minutes = 4608000
> BITS    (or 5.5 Mbytes)
> 
>         That is slightly more than the 64 Kbytes that is easily addressable
> in with 80x86 series.

I did leave off the 100 in the formula, ( my bad ) I also divided by 4 and
didn't put that in the formula. 5760000 bytes or 5.652 Meg ( oops ) So I guess
the memory card option is the one to go with, treat the data as a file and
store it on a pcmcia memory card.

Must remember to engage brain BEFORE inserting foot into mouth.

Bill

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 13:06:57 -0400 
From: "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Datalogger Memory

> So I guess  the memory card option is the one to go with, treat the data
> as a file and
> store it on a pcmcia memory card.
> 
> Bill
> 
	You will need 16 data lines and at least 20 address lines to access
the PCMCIA flash memory (they are actually 68 pin based). I don't think the
suggested controller has that many I/O lines. Unless you do all kinds of
fancy stuff with the addressing, but somehow I doubt how many of the people
who wants a datalogger has the knowledge (or time) to do that. It doesn't
matter if it is a file or just raw data from the processor, you will still
have trouble getting it to the flash card.

	Regards,

	Geo 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 13:21:43 -0400
From: Bill Heckel 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Datalogger Memory

The memcard option is a part from the same company that makes the cheap cpu
card.  I would NOT recommend that an amateur design a pcmcia card interface.

http://www.tern.com/memcard.htm

that plus the A-engine, you get a total price still under $600 with a memory
card.  

van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092) wrote:
> 
> > So I guess  the memory card option is the one to go with, treat the data
> > as a file and
> > store it on a pcmcia memory card.
> >
> > Bill
> >
>         You will need 16 data lines and at least 20 address lines to access
> the PCMCIA flash memory (they are actually 68 pin based). I don't think the
> suggested controller has that many I/O lines. Unless you do all kinds of
> fancy stuff with the addressing, but somehow I doubt how many of the people
> who wants a datalogger has the knowledge (or time) to do that. It doesn't
> matter if it is a file or just raw data from the processor, you will still
> have trouble getting it to the flash card.
> 
>         Regards,
> 
>         Geo

- -- 
Bill Heckel
Chief Technologist
Virtual Motion Inc.
412-481-9629 Voice
412-481-9628 Fax
www.vm3.com
Bringing motion simulation to users everywhere.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:17:45 +0100
From: Alan Lapp 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

>Thats a good question Mitch. It is not that difficult to store the stuff in
>memory, but I think you are right about just sending the stuff out to a
>central computer for real time analysis and storage.

>> Is this done by car race teams to a central computer not on the vehicle by
>> radio signals?
>>
>> mitch
>>
>> >  In fact,
>> > the memory management is one of the difficulties of developing a data
>> > logger.
>> >
>> > Geo

Not to harp on this Max fellah, but the Drack system he uses is a 'data
logger', which implies that it stores the data in the unit on the bike,
then downloads it to a laptop in the pit area.  The use of radio
transmission would put it in the category of a 'telemetry' device, which
would seem to quadruple the headaches - it's data acquisition plus
communications.  Way over my head.  Unless, hmmmmm, I could figure out a
way to use a data cable to my digital cell phone....  I wonder how many
baud these loggers create?

Another post indicated that there are models which have up to 1mb of
memory.  I am curious - is the memory on the chip, or is it outboard?  If
it were outboard, one could add a SIMM bank which would use standard SIMMS
for low-cost/high volume storage.

I was also thinking about utilizing a PC card hard drive for data storage:
that would make the downloads pretty much a no-brainer, but does introduce
a reliability issue.  I think they'd deteriorate rapidly in a
high-vibration environment.

Al
level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 15:29:29 -0400 
From: "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

>  
> Not to harp on this Max fellah, but the Drack system he uses is a 'data
> logger', which implies that it stores the data in the unit on the bike,
> then downloads it to a laptop in the pit area.  The use of radio
> transmission would put it in the category of a 'telemetry' device, which
> would seem to quadruple the headaches - it's data acquisition plus
> communications.  Way over my head.  Unless, hmmmmm, I could figure out a
> way to use a data cable to my digital cell phone....  I wonder how many
> baud these loggers create?
	----
	Al
	level_5_ltd@earthlink.net

	I heard the cell phones can handle around a 9600 baud rate. So it
could be done ...

	The memory can be either onboard or external. Usually the big stuff
is external. Simms is a bit of a pain in the butt since they have to be
refreshed every so many millisecs. Unless your computer takes care of it by
itself. 

	I personally don't think a hard drive has a very good chance of
surviving the vibrations, but I could be wrong.

	Geo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 12:49 -0800
From: "Griffiths, Duncan" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

A friend and I had a look at data logging a few months back and we were   
figuring on slower sampling rates for things like throttle position,   
brake activation/pressure, etc.  I think 5-10Hz.  We figured memory   
requirements for 30 minutes could be brought down to 1-2Mbytes.  Also,   
fewer bits would be required for some channels.  How much resolution do   
you need on throttle position?

We found a good datalogging board from Campbell Scientific for about   
$1000.  With all the sensors and other items, the standard datalogging   
systems start to get more reasonably priced.  Following are some websites   
with pertinent information:
Www.campbellsci.com (I think)
http://www.pi-group.com/
http://www.telog.com/index.html
http://www.astratech.co.uk/prod.html

Duncan
=================
 32 bits * 8 Channels * 100 Hz * 60 Seconds * 30 Minutes = 4608000
BITS (or 5.5 Mbytes)

 That is slightly more than the 64 Kbytes that is easily addressable
in with 80x86 series. C will allow you up to 1 Mbyte with large memory
model, but after that it is time for some more advanced methods. In fact,
the memory management is one of the difficulties of developing a data
logger.

 Geo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 14:43:04 -0700
From: Marty Maclean 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Measuring Lean Angle (Datalogging)

van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092) wrote:
> 

> 
>         I personally don't think a hard drive has a very good chance of
> surviving the vibrations, but I could be wrong.
> 
There are PCMCIA Memory cards available now in varying capacities that
can handle all manner of vibrations and such that CDs & optical disks
can't handle well.

Marty

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 20:56:25 -0500
From: "Thomas Alberti" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Non-Topic: Honda Part Needed

Sorry for the off-topic, maybe someone (MM?) could post this to the
dirt-list or thumper-list or??

Tonight I found out the rear hub/brake assy on my '83 Honda XL500R is
trashed. I need to either buy the hub/brake assy or the complete rear
wheel, although I'd prefer just the hub/brake assy.

Another option would be to lace up a later model hub w/ disc brake, but I
don't know what hub will fit in the swingarm and still have the sprocket in
line w/ the front sprocket.

Please reply to my personal e-mail address: talberti@execpc.com

Thank you,

Thomas

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 19:31:41 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Non-Topic: Honda Part Needed

> Sorry for the off-topic, maybe someone (MM?) could post this to the
> dirt-list or thumper-list or??

Hello Thomas,

I just forwarded it to the thumper list for you.

Cheers,
Michael
Michael Moore
Euro Spares, SF CA
Distributor of Lucas RITA and Powerbase products
Sole North American distributor of "The Racing Motorcycle: a technical guide for constructors"
Host of 6 m/c email lists (details on the web site)
http://www.eurospares.com
AFM/AHRMA #364

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:42:00 -0500
From: "Thomas Alberti" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Non-Topic: Honda Part Needed

> Hello Thomas,
> 
> I just forwarded it to the thumper list for you.
> 
> Cheers,
> Michael
> Michael Moore


I really appreciate it Michael...

that d*mn bike is turning out to be the $2,000 restoration that will be
worth $500 when it is completed, if you know what I mean... but it will be
nice! haha

Thomas

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1998 22:51:36 -0500
From: "Thomas Alberti" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Non-Topic: OOOPS!

> I really appreciate it Michael...

OOOPS! Thought that was going just to Michael... sorry 'bout that one
folks...

Thomas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Aug 1998 11:28:52 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Aircraft engines- 

> Hi,

Since some people have been finding basic engine layouts etc. of interest for
motorcycles, I thought these websites might be useful:

http://www.isd.net/eulmer/engines.html   there are many many aircraft engines
here

(be sure to check out the Finnish Jet Bike)
http://lenkkari.cs.tut.fi/~sk73171/turbo.html

http://www.halcyon.com/wanttaja/engines.html

mitch

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #718
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst         Friday, August 7 1998         Volume 01 : Number 719



 1. "Thomas Alberti"  Subj: MC-Chassis East Coast to Midwest Delivery
 2. "Max Hall"           Subj: Re: MC-Chassis East Coast to Midwest Delivery
 3. "Thomas Alberti"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis East Coast to Midwest Delivery
 4. Mfstj@aol.com                        Subj: MC-Chassis MCN titbits
 5. "Michael Moore"   Subj: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angle measurements.
 6. "Ray or Emily Brooks"  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis MCN titbits
 7. David E Harhay  Subj: MC-Chassis Lean angle
 8. David E Harhay  Subj: MC-Chassis lean angle
 9. "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)"  Subj: RE: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angle measurements.
10. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Yaw Sensors & Lean angle measurements.
11. Mitch Casto   Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Yaw Sensors & Lean angle measurements.
12. Mitch Casto   Subj: MC-Chassis Chinese Motorcycles

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 12:19:10 -0500
From: "Thomas Alberti" 
Subject: MC-Chassis East Coast to Midwest Delivery

Does anybody want to deliver an inexpensive, non-ridable motorcycle from
the east coast to the midwest? (NH to WI) Wouldn't have to be
immediately...

Or, can anyone tell me what a commercial carrier would charge for same?

Thanks,

Thomas

P.S. You can reply to my personal e-mail address: talberti@execpc.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 13:58:14 -0400
From: "Max Hall" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis East Coast to Midwest Delivery

There's a guy named Fred who has moved my Indian-built Bajaj Boston to Ohio,
and a 1964 Fuji Rabbit Superflow S-601 Boston to Montery for me; good
prices, and better if you let him move it at his leisure which sounds like
it's ok with you.

Tell him Max sent you. Fred: 717 546 9716

- -Max Hall
- -maxo@iname.com
- -Plywood Guy, Scooters, and what-all: http://www.maxmatic.com


- -----Original Message-----
From: Thomas Alberti 
To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com 
Date: Thursday, August 06, 1998 1:14 PM
Subject: MC-Chassis East Coast to Midwest Delivery


>
>Does anybody want to deliver an inexpensive, non-ridable motorcycle from
>the east coast to the midwest? (NH to WI) Wouldn't have to be
>immediately...
>
>Or, can anyone tell me what a commercial carrier would charge for same?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Thomas
>
>P.S. You can reply to my personal e-mail address: talberti@execpc.com
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:04:48 -0500
From: "Thomas Alberti" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis East Coast to Midwest Delivery

> 
> There's a guy named Fred who has moved my Indian-built Bajaj Boston to
Ohio,
> and a 1964 Fuji Rabbit Superflow S-601 Boston to Montery for me; good
> prices, and better if you let him move it at his leisure which sounds
like
> it's ok with you.
> 
> Tell him Max sent you. Fred: 717 546 9716
> 
> -Max Hall

Thanks Max, I'll give him a call, I appreciate it!

Thomas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 18:59:41 EDT
From: Mfstj@aol.com
Subject: MC-Chassis MCN titbits

Hi,
     Did any one else notice the piece in MCN about the new Ducati996
supposedly having a FFE the artists impresion looked impractical but if the
stories true it could be a boost for the image of alternative front ends or
the end of Ducati depending on the conservatism of the buying public. The
other item that caught my atention was about a new 125 GP bike Italjet are
building with a frame designed by Nico Baker and a single sided rear swing
arm. I can only conclude that weight limits are set so high they have to find
somewhere to add extra weight.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 17:12:10 -0800
From: "Michael Moore" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angle measurements.

Another post caught out by the overzealous list software (line 2).

Cheers,
Michael

- ------- Forwarded Message Follows -------

From: "Tony Foale" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Lean angle measurements.
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 19:21:33 +0200


Just had a thought.
If a gyro system is too expensive or otherwise *nsuitable, you could use two
lateral accelerometors (unless rotary accelerometers are available).
Mount one as high as possible on the bike and the other as low as possible,
you could then analyse the outputs to derieve roll acceleration, once you
have that then you can intergrate twice  wrt time and you'll have roll
angle.  There'll be some drift due to measurement and computational errors
but a gyro drifts also.  you could always have a reset button on the
handlebars to reset before attempting the manouver that you wish to analyse.

In the early 60s. today's cheap data acquisition hardware was not available
and so I made my own.  For accelerometers I used a differencial capacitor,
basically this had a 1/4' thick aluminium plate about 1' square this was
supported by 4 thin bronze "legs" at each corner such that it was restrained
in the plane of the plate but was sprung  at right angles to that plane, two
other plates were mounted to each side of that small plate and these were
fixed to the bike.  So any acceleration normal to the plane of the plate
would cause this plate to move relative to the other two plates, closer to
one and farther from the other, so the capacitance increased on one side and
decreased on the other.  These differencial capacitor was connected in a
bridge circuit and used to phase or frequency (I forget which) modulate a
high end audio signal.
Steering angle etc. was easily handled by standard pots. suitably geared up.
These were also used to frequency modulate an audio signal.
Data collection was by means of a stereo tape recorder strapped to the
pillion seat, the audio signals were recorded normally for analysis later.
I had handlebar buttons to put markers on the tape at the start of certain
manouvers.
Initially the stereo recorder only gave me two data channels but I later
multiplexed the signals to get 4 channels.
This data was then often fed into my computer models, which initially were
setup on analog computers.

You guys have really got it easy today.

For anybody that wants some simple data acquisition on the cheap, don't
forget that I pointed out in an earlier post that joystick ports on PCs are
analog +/- 5v.  Normally you can have 2 joysticks with X and Y on each, that
makes 4 analog inputs plus a number of switches for marker duty.  The
processing software is almost trivial, even bad old BASIC can read joystick
inputs.

Tony Foale

Espa+_a ( Spain )
http://www.ctv.es/USERS/softtech/motos

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:09:25 -0400
From: "Ray or Emily Brooks" 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis MCN titbits

The Nico Bakker MT125R frame I have is not light. It also has a steel
Yamaha mono shock.

Ray

- ----------
> From: Mfstj@aol.com
> To: mc-chassis-design@list.sirius.com
> Subject: MC-Chassis MCN titbits
> Date: Thursday, August 06, 1998 6:59 PM
> 
> Hi,
>      Did any one else notice the piece in MCN about the new Ducati996
> supposedly having a FFE the artists impresion looked impractical but if
the
> stories true it could be a boost for the image of alternative front ends
or
> the end of Ducati depending on the conservatism of the buying public. The
> other item that caught my atention was about a new 125 GP bike Italjet
are
> building with a frame designed by Nico Baker and a single sided rear
swing
> arm. I can only conclude that weight limits are set so high they have to
find
> somewhere to add extra weight.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:46:15 -0400
From: David E Harhay 
Subject: MC-Chassis Lean angle

While a more precise device to measure the lean angle is
built or bought.  What about measuring the angle via a photo
or even a digital photo?  You will get some idea of the angle,
this will help in your calculations of what range to have in a
more accurate device.
Dave Harhay

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 6 Aug 1998 20:52:19 -0400
From: David E Harhay 
Subject: MC-Chassis lean angle

Hello, I was wondering if while you are in the design or purchase
phase of a precise device to measure lean angle if you have
considered to merely measure a photo or even a digital photo
imported into CAD to get a rough approximation.  This will help
establish your rough ranges of operation and may open up
some eyes once done.
Dave Harhay

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 08:15:00 -0400 
From: "van der Merwe, Geo J (GEA, 082092)" 
Subject: RE: MC-Chassis Re: Lean angle measurements.

> Just had a thought.
> If a gyro system is too expensive or otherwise *nsuitable, you could use
> two
> lateral accelerometors (unless rotary accelerometers are available).
> Mount one as high as possible on the bike and the other as low as
> possible,
> you could then analyse the outputs to derieve roll acceleration, once you
> have that then you can intergrate twice  wrt time and you'll have roll
> angle.  There'll be some drift due to measurement and computational errors
> but a gyro drifts also.  you could always have a reset button on the
> handlebars to reset before attempting the manouver that you wish to
> analyse.
> 
	They sell two types of gyro for the model helicopters. The regular
type with spinning parts and nice and small bearings, and also piezo
electric gyro's.  They take care of the integration with hardware, and then
just provide an output. I am sure they use the same kind of principle that
Tony is suggesting. I think the regular ones start at $100, with piezo ones
costing about $250.

	One would have to do an experiment to determine how large the
integration error is. I have had large drifts using accelerometers to try
and determine speed from longitudinal acceleration. Perhaps tire slip was
part of the problem, but after about 3 laps I would be well past 150 mph,
when I should have been at 0 mph.
>  
	Geo 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 11:56:00 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Yaw Sensors & Lean angle measurements.

> Hi, Would    yaw sensors   be a good way to measure lean angle ?

There are lots of sites listed on http://dogpile.com if you use the search term:
"yaw sensors" (keep the quotes).

mitch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 12:35:31 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Yaw Sensors & Lean angle measurements.

Hi again,

I do know the difference between  YAW and ROLL.  I'm just thinking that a yaw sensor
might be positioned differently to become a roll sensor.

mitch

Mitch Casto wrote:

> > Hi, Would    yaw sensors   be a good way to measure lean angle ?
>
> There are lots of sites listed on http://dogpile.com if you use the search term:
> "yaw sensors" (keep the quotes).
>
> mitch

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 14:20:59 -0400
From: Mitch Casto 
Subject: MC-Chassis Chinese Motorcycles

> Some Chinese Motorcycle sites:

http://www.geely.comhttp://www.chinamotorcycle.com/
http://www.china-qingqi.com
http://www.chang-jiang.com/welcome.html
http://www.freeyellow.com/members/classr71/index.html

mitch

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #719
******************************



MC-Chassis-Dgst        Saturday, August 8 1998        Volume 01 : Number 720



 1. "Sam Stoney"      Subj: MC-Chassis cheap D.A/ telemetry
 2. batwings@i-plus.net                  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis cheap D.A/ telemetry
 3. Dick Brewster  Subj: Re: MC-Chassis Chinese Motorcycles
 4. "Jon Hose"         Subj: MC-Chassis Grit in ATF?
 5. "Thomas Alberti"  Subj: MC-Chassis This is a t*st
 6. Eugene Shafir <04shafir@cua.edu>     Subj: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 scolloping tube

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 11:43:51 -0700
From: "Sam Stoney" 
Subject: MC-Chassis cheap D.A/ telemetry

Tony suggests:

> 
> For anybody that wants some simple data acquisition on the cheap, don't
> forget that I pointed out in an earlier post that joystick ports on PCs
are
> analog +/- 5v.  Normally you can have 2 joysticks with X and Y on each,
that
> makes 4 analog inputs plus a number of switches for marker duty.  The
> processing software is almost trivial, even bad old BASIC can read
joystick
> inputs.
> 


Great idea! Of course, you could also take a RC model controller and wire
in your sensors in place of the joystick pots. Bingo - read the voltage off
the reciever into your PC and you could have a 4 channel (or more)
telemetry system for under 250.00! (batteries and PC input device not
included)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 15:48:01
From: batwings@i-plus.net
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis cheap D.A/ telemetry

At 11:43 AM 8/7/98 -0700, you wrote:
>Great idea! Of course, you could also take a RC model controller and wire
>in your sensors in place of the joystick pots. Bingo - read the voltage off
>the reciever into your PC and you could have a 4 channel (or more)
>telemetry system for under 250.00! (batteries and PC input device not
>included)

Who is this guy? Just wanted to tell you all, pay attention to him. The
above is quite simply the best idea I've seen in years and if he keeps
hitting like this we may all be out of jobs giving advice on the web. Enjoy.

Hoyt



 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 07 Aug 1998 15:08:48 -0700
From: Dick Brewster 
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis Chinese Motorcycles

Mitch wrote:

> Some Chinese Motorcycle sites:

....
http://www.chang-jiang.com/welcome.html
....

mitch >>

The chang jiang (Long River) site is an interesting one, it has
parts manual pictures of the power train. If anyone wants to see
the workings of a couple of old BMW engines, this is the place.

The last time I was in China, I saw some Chang Jiangs that aren't
on that site.  Around Bejing, Chang Jiangs with the old flathead
boxer engine, toaster style tank and 3 spoke wheels were pretty
common. They were an interesting mix of ancient and semi modern
and actually looked good.  They even sounded good, which is hard
to imagine for a 25 hp flathead twin.  All of them that I saw
were sidecar models with white paint jobs and a good 10 foot
(looks good at 10 feet) striping job. The 3 spoke wheels weren't
cast, but were steel sheet metal stampings with two pieces
forming each spoke.

Dick

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 7 Aug 1998 16:22:21 -0700
From: "Jon Hose" 
Subject: MC-Chassis Grit in ATF?

I am about to replace the fork oil on one of my
bikes.  I like to use ATF but read recently that
either Dexron or type F automatic trans fluid has
"grit" as an ingredient.  Is this true?  If so,
which type has it?  I've been using Dexron...

Thanks!

Jon Hose

(P.S. I assume that grit is some kind of friction
enhancing rather than reducing material)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 8 Aug 1998 10:02:09 -0500
From: "Thomas Alberti" 
Subject: MC-Chassis This is a t*st

This is a t*st.

Thomas

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 08 Aug 1998 16:12:58 -0400
From: Eugene Shafir <04shafir@cua.edu>
Subject: Re: MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 scolloping tube

Calvin Grandy wrote:
>
>         Now, we also had a mathematician in our group.  He was a quite guy,
> that did much of the electrical design for some of the real spiffy
> stuff that goes into high end toys.  He put his thinking cap on, and
> like a good HVAC duct work mechanic, laid out the shape of each
> required intersection on a sheet of Molar, complete with a reference
> line for length and "rotation". These layouts were cut out to provide
> a full scale profile of the required tube end . 


I wrote a small program for creating templates for tube profiling. Both
executable and source code in BASIC available at 

http://www.campus.cua.edu/~04shafir/home.htm

Now, if someone can program printers...


Eugene Shafir

------------------------------

End of MC-Chassis-Dgst V1 #720
******************************



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